@GGG: Enough of this about dual wielding and reave

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BisuProbe escribió:

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MortalKombat3 escribió:

In Diablo3, most Barbarian's, Monk's and DemonHunter's skills are dual-wield ones. I mean, you can freely use any of their skills while dualwielding, and they WILL be viable, despite character alternates weapon attack while dualwielding, same to PoE. You can also use them with 2-hander, or with weapon+shield - and they will be viable, still. In D3, Dual-wielders arent limited to usage on one single skill. Sure, some skills will still favor more slow 2-handers, while other - favor more fast-hitting dualwielding. But the difference isnt even close to that in PoE, where using any skill besides Dual Strike while dualwielding gives you almost no benefits.
So, it seems, that GGG (Mark, at least) wants to make most (if not all) melee skills VIABLE while dualwielding. And i agree with that. IF you think, that dualwielding should be about using Dual Strike skill only - well, it's your personal opinion, and i'm sure most players dont share it.

its not about having exclusive dual wield skills but addressing the flaws of dual wield as a whole. the current situation in poe is that 1h+shield is always a superior choice since it offers much more survability, when dual wield merely gives a ias bonus which is not significant enough to ditch a shield for.

and with this particular "1h+shield" dominance in the game the only somewhat "good" skill to use with dual wield is dual strike. if i use other skills i might as well be doing 1h+shield instead, especially in hc league where survival is impt. saavy???

Yeah, you're right there. In D3, Hardcore players still tend to use shields, because survivability >>> everything else for them. But Softcore players usually tend to dualwield , or use offhand DPS-booster for Wizard/Witch Doctor, or use two-hander. In PoE, both softcore and hardcore players choose shields too often. I wont wonder, when CI shadow chooses to use shield, as it offers huge HP boost (due to ES=HP for CI). But when i see endgame players chosing to use Crest of Perandus (level 8 shield with nice block and stats, but TERRIBLE defences), there is definetely a flaw there. When players dont care about defences (armour/evasion) given by shield, and still chose a shield, when players choose level 8 unique over decent level 70 rare, well, there is a SERIOUS flaw in game design...

All the skills that alternate weapons do not fit to the DW nature, as it is.
That's why DS and cleave are the only two real DW skills in this game. They obey the DW concept to hit with both hands simultaneously.

There's no problem with DW mechanic in this game, there's problem with the skills that have to enable it. One of the only true DW skills was nerfed to the ground, while calling it "overpowered". It actually wasn't, it just suited the DW mechanics. It wasn't hard to look like OP, compared to the other pseudo DW skills. Now they call DS OP. Nerf hammer incoming...

I don't expect anything different from a person that states Reave is a dedicated DW skill, because this and that, that could be used by 1H/shield accidentally. Can you imagine...

Oh, by the way DW block chance needs a buff.

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torturo escribió:

All the skills that alternate weapons do not fit to the DW nature, as it is.
That's why DS and cleave are the only two real DW skills in this game. They obey the DW concept to hit with both hands simultaneously.

Not true.
The concept behind dual wielding is to wield two weapons. How you fight with them is another question.

You do raise an interesting point though, if I have a weapon in each hand, why do I only use the "main" one when I Flicker Strike? Or Whirling Blades? Or Cyclone?

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Rufus82 escribió:

Not true.
The concept behind dual wielding is to wield two weapons. How you fight with them is another question.

Ok, then you have to tell what are you supposed to do with these weapons. Because dual wielding for the sake of wielding two weapons, makes no sense, you know.

In real life offhand weapon was used as a shield mainly. But it's a computer game, it's imaginary, you know.
In computer games, built around D&D rules (RPGs, aRPG's commonly are), DW is executed as:

-hitting with both hands simultaneously
-alternating weapons with a chance to hit with both of them at a time; % chance is often manipulated by skills, but not necessary

So?

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MortalKombat3 escribió:

when players choose level 8 unique over decent level 70 rare, well, there is a SERIOUS flaw in game design...

Shields are undoubtedly the worst item base in game when it comes to variety of usage, I've been telling that for months.

There are few uniques that are being used by life builds, rares only matter in ES builds.

I'm not saying hitting with both simultaneously is ruled out or not part of it, I'm saying that it is one component of it.

GGG have the basics of the mechanics right, more attack speed and block chance. The attack speed is what a lot of us are contending. Try this yourself (no one is watching), pretend you have a weapon in one hand, then see how many times you can swing that weapon in 10 seconds. Now pretend you have two weapons, one in each hand. See how many swings you can pull off in 10 seconds now. I'll bet you got better than a 10% boost.

I will agree that more skills need to hit with both weapons simultaneously. My votes got to Leap Slam, Whirling Blades, Ground Slam and Flicker Strike. They should loose the attack speed bonus for doing so.
Cyclone should benefit from increased hits with a reduced block chance.

You are making a common mistake. There's almost no difference in terms of DPS between DW and 1h/ shield, if you alternate hands. Actually, you could have lower DPS, if one of the weapons is crap. Depends on weapons. The only difference is the 10% more AS, if we consider to use absolutely identical weapons as a comparison. Is it worth to sacrifice the shield and lack survivability because of 10% AS ?

Also your current AS will be defined by the slowest of weapons you hold, anyway.

There are games with such mechanics, where you alternate hands only while DW and your mainhand is the real source of damage, but there are quite interesting offhands present, as well. Much better than prismatic, or ungil's.

P.S.
It's all about concepts, btw. Actually we are not arguing, because there are different ways to make DW work. GGG are supposed to find it out after 2 years of "balancing" and "fine tuning", aren't they ?
The dedicated DW Reave just smacked me down. Such skill. Much talent.

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torturo escribió:

There's almost no difference in terms of DPS between DW and 1h/ shield, if you alternate hands. Actually, you could have lower DPS, if one of the weapons is crap. Depends on weapons. The only difference is the 10% more AS, which will work for both hands. Is it worth to sacrifice the shield and lack survivability because of 10% AS ?

In DW current form, yes, virtually no difference between DW and 1h + shield when alternating hands.
The 10% more speed is what a lot of us are suggesting needs to be higher, and the point of my illustration of how many swings you can do in 10 seconds was to prove that in reality you should be able to attack almost twice as fast when dual wielding (however that could be impractical from a game mechanics point of view).

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Real_Wolf escribió:

In this thread:

Trolls misunderstanding anything GGG says

also known as

The reason a lot of dev's don't say anything because it is purposely misconstrued.



Dual Strike is very powerful now (compared with other DW options)

This means that DS is relatively overpowered, but also that DW itself is probably very underpowered.

Mark even said specifically in the thread you are quoting, that if DS+Splash is outdoing every other option significantly DW itself may need looking into.




And as Pneuma said very well. If a skill, reave, that clearly benefits significantly from aspd, is better 1h+shield than DW which is slower, then there is probably a problem with DW itself

No.

The issue isn't that we are misunderstanding GGG and that we are comparing the skill to dual strike.

The issue is that reave is better with a shield, period. You're completely 100% wasting your offhand damage when you alternate attacks, it's just a fact of life. You aren't wasting your shield when you 1h+shield. Moreover, as others have said, if your offhand or mainhand is 10% slower than the other weapon (due to a faster base or a better ias mod), you LITERALLY get stacks slower than if you just used a shield with your faster weapon.

At this point we HAVEN'T EVEN STARTED comparing damage differences. Why you are once again defending GGG on an issue that quite hilariously is obviously blatantly wrong I have no idea, but it doesn't surprise me since this is what you always do day in and day out. You're starting to lose any credibility, if you had any left.

TLDR: your fanboism is showing, you might want to cover that up.

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MortalKombat3 escribió:

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Legatus1982 escribió:

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Mark_GGG escribió:

and reave that's built to work on the strengths of dual wielding

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Mark_GGG escribió:

Reave is a dual wield skill, that's part of the point of it. It's specifically designed to synergise with dual wielding.

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Mark_GGG escribió:

It doesn't. Having a shield literally give no bonus to the use of Reave, while dual wielding gives a multiplicative attack speed bonus, where attack speed is one of the most important factors to using the skill.

Just because the attack speed bonus helps build stacks doesn't mean it's a dual wield skill. You're wasting your "offhand" during every attack you alternate while dual wielding, and not wasting your offhand when you use 1h with a shield. It's time to put a stop to this ridiculousness, honestly. It's not a dual wield skill.

In Diablo3, most Barbarian's, Monk's and DemonHunter's skills are dual-wield ones. I mean, you can freely use any of their skills while dualwielding, and they WILL be viable, despite character alternates weapon attack while dualwielding, same to PoE. You can also use them with 2-hander, or with weapon+shield - and they will be viable, still. In D3, Dual-wielders arent limited to usage on one single skill. Sure, some skills will still favor more slow 2-handers, while other - favor more fast-hitting dualwielding. But the difference isnt even close to that in PoE, where using any skill besides Dual Strike while dualwielding gives you almost no benefits.
So, it seems, that GGG (Mark, at least) wants to make most (if not all) melee skills VIABLE while dualwielding. And i agree with that. IF you think, that dualwielding should be about using Dual Strike skill only - well, it's your personal opinion, and i'm sure most players dont share it.

This has nothing to do with D3, dual strike, or personal opinions. It's mathematical fact that reave is better with a shield.

If the "other side" here can't comprehend the mechanics behind differing attack speeds while dual wielding, differing damages while dual wielding, losing entirely your offhand weapon stats while you're on the other weapons attack, and dealing with none of these issues while a shield is equipped, I don't know what else can be done for the fanboys. You guys are quite literally being laughed at.

Remember this isn't even about whether or not you CAN etch out an extra 4 %attack speed while dual wielding if you have 2 weapons within 3% aps of each other, which isnt even that much. It's that somehow GGG is under the impression this means the skill is a "dual wielding" skill, specifically designed around dual wielding like dual strike and cleave. Clearly however they intended it to be, it is not a dual wield skill.

And just to be clear this isn't a personal attack on Mark, god forbid. I think he clearly made some mistakes with that logic but it isn't the first time somebody messed up in the world's history. I just want to put a stop to obvious fallacies.