@GGG: Enough of this about dual wielding and reave

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Real_Wolf escribió:

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RogueMage escribió:

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Real_Wolf escribió:

lets say dual wield gave a 50% more aspd bonus. Would reave be better dual wield or single?

Yes, dual-wielding makes Reave work faster, but there are better choices from both angles. If Reave is what you want, Multistrike is by far the best speed-boosting option, and it makes dual-wielding a marginal improvement. If it's dual-wielding you want to optimize, Dual Strike + Melee Splash is a far better option than Reave.

I agree. Include multistrike in any calculations.

I also agree Dual strike + melee splash is OVERPOWERED.


Sure its not OP compared with other damage dealing methods. But compare it to any other dual wielding options. It is way better.



The entire point is DS >>> other DW options, and DS ~~~= other non DW options, --> DW need buff, DS+splash relative nerf at same time

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UnderOmerta escribió:

Let's say dual wield gave 100000% more attack speed. Would every melee skill in the game be dual wield or single?

This.

If dual wield gave a 50% more aspd bonus, I'm still not sure I'd call reave a dual wield skill. It still scales to 8 stacks easily without a speed boost, reaches that cap even with slow weapons, and doesn't do anything extra for dual wield once you're at 8 stacks.

Additionally, at that point the alternating attacks would still WASTE your offhand. So basically, you benefit a tiny bit in your first few hits by getting a bigger aoe on those initially, then afterwards you're back to completely wasting your time with your offhand. And that's assuming the extra aoe is actually netting hits on more mobs, which isn't even certain in the first place.

Using multistrike and/or faster attacks with your reave? Well you might as well not bother with dual wielding then, because you'll be hitting 8 stacks so fast you won't even notice any added effectiveness with dual wielding, and you're probably losing both dps AND survivability because of differences in your weapons' damage and speed.

I mean sure, this might help dual wielding by making it impossible to not benefit somehow, but is this really the solution we want? It would make dual wielding OP, and sadly it still won't fix a large number of the problems dual wield faces. Raising the speed boost is unfortunately just poorly thought out and lazy, much like the original implementation. Oh and of course, reave still wouldn't be a "dual wield skill".

At some point you're just going to have to face the facts and accept the realization that reave is simply not a dual wield skill and performs vastly better with one weapon. I really don't see how despite the massive evidence saying otherwise, someone would still think it's a dual wield skill. Seems to lack logical process.

As for how to fix dual wielding that's already been discussed in the other thread so I feel no need to bother with it here. I'll say again that raising the aspd boost is terrible though.

Regarding animation issues for using both weapons on every melee attack, I have a solution.

Read this suggestion thread and discuss:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/875099

oh, I agree, just aspd itself is not going to make it an attractive option.

Was just trying to say, it is understandable why reave is considered a goal for dual wield, but dual wield itself is really in a bad place is my main point

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torturo escribió:

Ok, then you have to tell what are you supposed to do with these weapons. Because dual wielding for the sake of wielding two weapons, makes no sense, you know.

In real life offhand weapon was used as a shield mainly. But it's a computer game, it's imaginary, you know.
In computer games, built around D&D rules (RPGs, aRPG's commonly are), DW is executed as:

-hitting with both hands simultaneously
-alternating weapons with a chance to hit with both of them at a time; % chance is often manipulated by skills, but not necessary

So?

So, it seems you have DIFFERENT opinion about what dual-wielding should be. Different from GGG, and from me. I agree, there is a lot of games to implement dual-wielding in games, from realistical parry/distraction (Dark Souls) to hitting with weapons simultaneously (WoW, NWN, etc).
GGG made dual-wielding mechanics similar to most (if not all) ARPGS. Diablo2-3, Titan Quest, Dungeon Siege2, Sacred1-2, Diablo3, Torchlight1-2... In all of them, dualwielding implictly alternates weapons, so you hit with only one weapon at a time.

Some of them allow character to make simultaneous attacks with both weapon as a "proc" (Titan Quest, Torchlight2).

Some provide specific skills, that hit with both weapons simultaneously (Diablo2 and PoE, too).

Others offer significant bonuses for dual-wielding (Diablo3, Sacred1-2, DS2). For example, using two weapons in D3 allows you to use two gems instead of one.

It seems, you want PoE behave like Diablo2 did - dualwield was usually viable only for specific dual-wield skills (e.g. Frenzy for Barbarian and Dragon Claw for Assassin).
I want Dual-wield to behave like D3/Sacred, OR Titan quest/Torchlight2. I believe, this is a better way, as it allows player to use ANY attack skill while dualwielding, not just few specific ones, thus, providing much more diversity and customization.

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MortalKombat3 escribió:

Others offer significant bonuses for dual-wielding (Diablo3, Sacred1-2, DS2). For example, using two weapons in D3 allows you to use two gems instead of one.

Sacred 2 is a good example of worthwhile dualwielding, it's really very well done. Levelling dual wield weapon mastery allows you to mix and match weapons at will, however, it doesn't unlock special bonuses on weapons like inidividual weapon skills do.

Also, skills use both weapons wherever possible, take inquisitor as an example.

callous execution (heavy strike) - hits with both weapons in a quick sequence, if first strike kills target he will hit another one with the second like in pic
http://www.sacredwiki.org/images/7/7e/Callous_Execution_DW_02.jpg

ruthless mutilation (cleave) - same, swings both weapons at once

dryad has a spin attack like sweep and she will also hit with both weapons with it

chars that use sequence attacks like sera or shadow warrior hit faster and get more hits per use

sera's dive attack will also hit with both weapons

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So? Are people using only DW in Sacred, I mean it hits with both weapons for full damage? Nope, shields are pretty good, you can do enough damage even without dual wield and weapon bonuses are very good. On the other hand, there are a lot of ways to be tanky without shields so you don't absolutely need them so DW is pretty tempting choice.
Balance - pretty much spot on.