@GGG: Enough of this about dual wielding and reave

I liked that idea of giving dual wield a % chance to hit with both weapons. That could be a pretty fun mechanic, then you could have skills that specifically increased that percentage (like reave) and make it more innately synergize with dual wielding. Not sure if it is a technical possibility though, but To the point about the technical debt of designing both handed animations for all skills, they could add a particle effect signaling that you hit with both weapons (recycled win fireworks mebe :P), not tied directly to any particular skill, instead of a special swing animation showing both hands being used.

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LostForm escribió:

I liked that idea of giving dual wield a % chance to hit with both weapons. That could be a pretty fun mechanic, then you could have skills that specifically increased that percentage (like reave) and make it more innately synergize with dual wielding.

That's titan quest mechanics, you alternate hands and passive skills add a chance to
- hit with both weapons at once
- hit with both and inflict bleed
- hit in an arc
- hit in a full circle

Same works for defender class and the shield, you have a chance to use a shield while attacking to stun, lower defense or do damage.

True, DW isn't really tied to active skills in TQ and there isn't much point, active skills have a long cooldown and are plenty strong already, you spend most of the time using normal attack augments like onslaught, it's not really a spammy game like PoE.

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Rufus82 escribió:

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torturo escribió:

All the skills that alternate weapons do not fit to the DW nature, as it is.
That's why DS and cleave are the only two real DW skills in this game. They obey the DW concept to hit with both hands simultaneously.

Not true.
The concept behind dual wielding is to wield two weapons. How you fight with them is another question.

You do raise an interesting point though, if I have a weapon in each hand, why do I only use the "main" one when I Flicker Strike? Or Whirling Blades? Or Cyclone?

In THEORY, maybe. It's fun to say on a theoretical level that "DW is about how you fight with them." But in practice alternating attacks is going to be a handicap because it's almost impossible that both of your weapons are the same damage output and speed. If one is even close to 10% worse than the other, then your 10% more attack speed bonus is immediately negated. Now think to yourself, find two random weapons that your character can use, what are the odds that one of them is 10% worse than the other? I would say the chances are extremely fucking high unless you happen to use two uniques or a mirrored weapon.

Finally, there's no fundamental difference between "gaining Reave stacks faster" than there is from "knockback faster" (heavy strike) or "shock stack faster" (lightning strike). Yet I never see anyone seriously arguing that Heavy Strike or Lightning Strike are "dual wield skills." The problem here is that people find GGG's label of Reave as a dual wield skill given its mechanics is hilarious. And if GGG seriously believes this, then they don't even understand their own game at a deep enough level to be trusted with design and balance issues.

And as mentioned, you can easily get 8 stacks of reave even with a fairly slow weapon. Hell, level 2 characters with slow weapons and no attack speed and mana problems out the yin-yang have no trouble getting to 8 stacks of reave. Why would endgame characters with 100+% IAS and zero sustain issues have trouble building 8 stacks with ANY WEAPON IN THE GAME?

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LostForm escribió:

I liked that idea of giving dual wield a % chance to hit with both weapons.

I like that idea too. To go one step further, how about this:

When dual-wielding, critical strikes deal both weapons' damage.

@UnderOmerta
Please read my other comments as you are taking me out of context.

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UnderOmerta escribió:

But in practice alternating attacks is going to be a handicap because it's almost impossible that both of your weapons are the same damage output and speed. If one is even close to 10% worse than the other, then your 10% more attack speed bonus is immediately negated. Now think to yourself, find two random weapons that your character can use, what are the odds that one of them is 10% worse than the other? I would say the chances are extremely fucking high unless you happen to use two uniques or a mirrored weapon.

Actually, it's even worse than you described.

Let's take the two linked examples in this thread: Essentia Sanguis and Ungil's Gauche.

Essentia Sanguis has IPD ranging from 80-120, and IAS ranging from 20-30. Right off the bat if you take two random Essentia Sanguis uniques and dual wield them, odds are extremely likely that you are losing damage. In terms of building stacks faster, the range of IAS is pretty small, so it's likely you'll be getting SOME bonus to your stack building speed, but the average is going to be a 5% ias difference.

Ungil's Gauche has a flat 10% IAS, so the attack speed is fixed. But again here, you have a 80-100% damage range on the item itself, the average of which is going to be a 10% difference. So while you may be building stacks faster, you've definitely got a chance to be dealing LOWER damage overall.

Overall there's no way that either of these are definitively more damage while dual wielded using a skill that isn't dual strike, and only one of them is even guaranteed to give an attack speed boost.

Those are uniques with set value ranges. Try getting that kind of range on 2 completely random weapons, you might not even have 2 of the same class and end up with differing base damages and base attack speeds, which completely screws you in either stack building or damage.

More than any of that though is the issue that GGG seems to think reave is a dual wield skill.

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Legatus1982 escribió:

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UnderOmerta escribió:

But in practice alternating attacks is going to be a handicap because it's almost impossible that both of your weapons are the same damage output and speed. If one is even close to 10% worse than the other, then your 10% more attack speed bonus is immediately negated. Now think to yourself, find two random weapons that your character can use, what are the odds that one of them is 10% worse than the other? I would say the chances are extremely fucking high unless you happen to use two uniques or a mirrored weapon.

Actually, it's even worse than you described.

Let's take the two linked examples in this thread: Essentia Sanguis and Ungil's Gauche.

Essentia Sanguis has IPD ranging from 80-120, and IAS ranging from 20-30. Right off the bat if you take two random Essentia Sanguis uniques and dual wield them, odds are extremely likely that you are losing damage. In terms of building stacks faster, the range of IAS is pretty small, so it's likely you'll be getting SOME bonus to your stack building speed, but the average is going to be a 5% ias difference.

Ungil's Gauche has a flat 10% IAS, so the attack speed is fixed. But again here, you have a 80-100% damage range on the item itself, the average of which is going to be a 10% difference. So while you may be building stacks faster, you've definitely got a chance to be dealing LOWER damage overall.

Overall there's no way that either of these are definitively more damage while dual wielded using a skill that isn't dual strike, and only one of them is even guaranteed to give an attack speed boost.

Those are uniques with set value ranges. Try getting that kind of range on 2 completely random weapons, you might not even have 2 of the same class and end up with differing base damages and base attack speeds, which completely screws you in either stack building or damage.

More than any of that though is the issue that GGG seems to think reave is a dual wield skill.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that dual wield is underpowered at the moment.



Reave IS a dual wield skill

But dual wield is underpowered, thats why people would bel ooking at it as a 1h+shield skill



lets say dual wield gave a 50% more aspd bonus. Would reave be better dual wield or single?

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Real_Wolf escribió:

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that dual wield is underpowered at the moment.



Reave IS a dual wield skill

But dual wield is underpowered, thats why people would bel ooking at it as a 1h+shield skill



lets say dual wield gave a 50% more aspd bonus. Would reave be better dual wield or single?

Let's say dual wield gave 100000% more attack speed. Would every melee skill in the game be dual wield or single?

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Real_Wolf escribió:

lets say dual wield gave a 50% more aspd bonus. Would reave be better dual wield or single?

Yes, dual-wielding makes Reave work faster, but there are better choices from both angles. If Reave is what you want, Multistrike is by far the best speed-boosting option, and it makes dual-wielding a marginal improvement. If it's dual-wielding you want to optimize, Dual Strike + Melee Splash is a far better option than Reave.

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RogueMage escribió:

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Real_Wolf escribió:

lets say dual wield gave a 50% more aspd bonus. Would reave be better dual wield or single?

Yes, dual-wielding makes Reave work faster, but there are better choices from both angles. If Reave is what you want, Multistrike is by far the best speed-boosting option, and it makes dual-wielding a marginal improvement. If it's dual-wielding you want to optimize, Dual Strike + Melee Splash is a far better option than Reave.

I agree. Include multistrike in any calculations.

I also agree Dual strike + melee splash is OVERPOWERED.


Sure its not OP compared with other damage dealing methods. But compare it to any other dual wielding options. It is way better.



The entire point is DS >>> other DW options, and DS ~~~= other non DW options, --> DW need buff, DS+splash relative nerf at same time