@GGG: Enough of this about dual wielding and reave

"

kasub escribió:

As for reave.. in that same topic devs said that dual wielding probably needs to be buffed if it's not worth it with reave. Reave has extremely good synergy with dualwielding due to reave stacks so there is a problem if it's not being used with reave.

It doesn't have any particularly special synergy with dual wielding attack speed, as mentioned. No more than ANY other melee skill in the game. As mentioned, you can apply more viper strike charges with dual wield. You can shock stack faster with lightning strike. You can leap slam faster while dual wielding, etc etc. None of those are anything that particularly benefits from dual wielding beyond the very basic mechanics of dual wielding.

And as mentioned, because the skill alternates attacks, you will actually acquire reave stacks SLOWER if your slower weapon is more than 10% slower than your faster weapon. Alternating attacks basically means any "dual wield" skill is not actually a dual wield skill.

"

UnderOmerta escribió:

It doesn't have any particularly special synergy with dual wielding attack speed, as mentioned. No more than ANY other melee skill in the game.

That's completely false. No other attack in the game gains AoE the more you use it. The dps increase is the same as all the others.

"

UnderOmerta escribió:

And as mentioned, because the skill alternates attacks, you will actually acquire reave stacks SLOWER if your slower weapon is more than 10% slower than your faster weapon. Alternating attacks basically means any "dual wield" skill is not actually a dual wield skill.

This is a concern that I agree with. The dw aspd bonus should be at least high enough that it overrides small differences between weapons.

"

UnderOmerta escribió:

"

SL4Y3R escribió:

While providing real life example is not usually the best in a magic game, I'm gonna go with it. When I see people duel wield, they don't always attack with both weapons. I don't think it's a necessary function personally.

How often do you "see people dual wield"? What line of work do you do?

I imagine that people who use weapons don't repeat the same animation 90000 times while walking around a clearing in a big circle and clear until the map is done either.

Chuckles. Fair point, but you still didn't speak in my comment

"

pneuma escribió:

"

UnderOmerta escribió:

It doesn't have any particularly special synergy with dual wielding attack speed, as mentioned. No more than ANY other melee skill in the game.

That's completely false. No other attack in the game gains AoE the more you use it. The dps increase is the same as all the others.

Maybe not, but there are plenty of stuff that benefits from faster attack speed. As I said, faster leap slam means you can move faster. Faster lightning strike means you could potentially get more shock stacks before they expire. Faster Viper Strike means you can load charges faster. All of these may well be true but they still aren't "dual wield skills" because they all alternate weapons and any DW attack speed bonus is negated by the fact that you need to be in melee range and would rather have a shield for that.

"

SL4Y3R escribió:

"

UnderOmerta escribió:

"

SL4Y3R escribió:

While providing real life example is not usually the best in a magic game, I'm gonna go with it. When I see people duel wield, they don't always attack with both weapons. I don't think it's a necessary function personally.

How often do you "see people dual wield"? What line of work do you do?

I imagine that people who use weapons don't repeat the same animation 90000 times while walking around a clearing in a big circle and clear until the map is done either.

Chuckles. Fair point, but you still didn't speak in my comment

The problem is that unless a skill attacks with both weapons at once (a la pre-nerf Cleave or DS), there's simply little reason to use DW. You give up defenses and any DW bonus you get is probably negated by the fact that the second weapon is at least 10% worse than your better weapon.

"

Maybe not, but there are plenty of stuff that benefits from faster attack speed.

Every attack skill benefits from attack speed but reave has the biggest synergy with attack speed due to its special stack mechanic. Most skills just end up being faster while reave has a more substantial effect.

The devs made the point that dualwield has to be even better to incentivize such a playstyle though. Dualwielding should be the best offensive option for reave by a wide margin(but currently isn't).

In this thread:

Trolls misunderstanding anything GGG says

also known as

The reason a lot of dev's don't say anything because it is purposely misconstrued.



Dual Strike is very powerful now (compared with other DW options)

This means that DS is relatively overpowered, but also that DW itself is probably very underpowered.

Mark even said specifically in the thread you are quoting, that if DS+Splash is outdoing every other option significantly DW itself may need looking into.




And as Pneuma said very well. If a skill, reave, that clearly benefits significantly from aspd, is better 1h+shield than DW which is slower, then there is probably a problem with DW itself

GGG devs play too little POE to actually know how skills in endgame perform.

"

UnderOmerta escribió:

The problem is that unless a skill attacks with both weapons at once (a la pre-nerf Cleave or DS), there's simply little reason to use DW.

First off, post-nerf cleave still attacks with two weapons. It goes from 70%DE to 84%DE while dual-wielding, clearly implying that it's aligned with dual-wielding.

To do what you suggest would mean rewriting every 1handed attack and creating a new set of animations for every 1handed attack. That's orders of magnitude more work than is necessary. It's also technical debt: every 1handed attack they come up with needs to include the dual-wield version.

Directly addressing DW and then addressing the outliers (a set containing one element -- Dual Strike) is much faster, cleaner, and safer than trying to change everything else.

Dual-wield is niche, but you can get insane attack speed if you go for it. There are two Unique weapons that make DW competitive with 1H + shield:

Ungil's Gauche dagger:

Essentia Sanguis claw:

When dual-wield, these weapons give you as much Chance to Block as a shield. And from the Duelist start, you can easily take the Dervish cluster, giving you 69% Block Chance with Ungil's or 49% with Essentia Sanguis. Combine this with Evasion or Dodge and you'll rarely get hit more than once in a while. So freeze and one-shots are really all you need to worry about.

DW synergizes best with Multistrike and Frenzy, and the +1 Frenzy Charge nodes are conveniently located in the Ranger and Duelist areas. As others have pointed out, ultra-fast attack speed supercharges skills like Lightning Strike, Viper Strike, and Dominating Blow, not to mention Dual Strike. With LGoH + Dual Strike, I can chew up Merciless Kole in complete safety with only 2500 HP.

Reave, however, is another story. Yes, its AOE does expand quickly, but its single-target damage doesn't get any better. What's worse is that Reave has a built-in attack speed penalty that makes it feel sluggish compared to Lightning Strike or Dual Strike. So if you don't need a giant AOE, you can get quicker kills with Melee Splash + LS or DS.

I have used Reave effectively on another character, but it's with 1H + Shield. What I think Reave synergizes best with is not attack speed, but Critical Strike and Cast on Crit. The 10% speed bonus from dual-wielding isn't enough to overcome Reave's sluggish nature. I think the DW speed bonus should be buffed up to 15%.

"

RogueMage escribió:

What's worse is that Reave has a built-in attack speed penalty that makes it feel sluggish compared to Lightning Strike or Dual Strike.

... what?

"

RogueMage escribió:

What I think Reave synergizes best with is not attack speed, but Critical Strike and Cast on Crit.

Well, given that it only works with daggers, claws, and 1h swords and 2 of those have high innate crit, you're not wrong that it's good with crit. Reave itself doesn't say anything about crit, but those weapons do.

It's pretty good for Cast on Crit as CoC only cares about how many targets you can hit per skill usage. Reave can hit many targets at once per skill usage. Using Reave as the applicator, you can autocast spells that are AoE in nature and Increased AoE assists both the applicator and the autocasted spell.

Reave is absolutely best with attack-speed. Multistrike Reave is very unlike non-Multistrike Reave. It should be the same way with dual-wielding, but the 1.1x aspd bonus is just not strong enough to make it feel like there's a difference.