Crafting is officially garbage in POE

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deteego escribió:

Its better evidence than the counter evidence


That's irrelevant. The burden of proof lies with the person making a claim. I'm not necessarily saying your conclusion is incorrect (to do so, I would need to prove counter-evidence), but I am questioning the validity of the argument you are making.

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And this falls apart when the evidence is removed, which is what GGG did


Then you have a problem.

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syrioforel escribió:

I might put forward that the fun of the game lies in progression - both character level and gear progression. Under that hypothesis, if gear progression becomes too easy, people may play less.


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No one is arguing for it to be easy


I don't think anyone is necessarily arguing for it to be easy (which is itself a loaded subjective term), but if you're going to suggest making it any easier (a relative term -- if getting good gear is unattainable now as you say, and you suggest making it attainable, this is a relaxation of the difficulty), care needs to be taken as to the extent of such changes.

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syrioforel escribió:

There are players who no-life the game, and they are the players that are trying to craft that tip-top gear. They have more time invested in the game than any other players, so their characters and stashes should, on the whole, be better off than other players. If the game is to remain interesting to that subset of the player pool, then some aspects of the game will end up being relatively inaccessible to players who, to put it bluntly, put only a responsible amount of time into the game ("casual", for lack of a better term, even if that means 40+ hours a week.)



This is irrelevant to the point being discussed. We are talking about mid range gamers, not no life gamers


You can target a change to mid-range gamers, but such a change has the possibility to affect the experience for all the other players as well. This needs to be considered.
IGN: SplitEpimorphism
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syrioforel escribió:
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ScrotieMcB escribió:
One of the key facets of min/maxing is to overcome superstition and look at situations with a scientific eye. In min/maxing probability-based events this means overcoming an irrational fear of variance and instead acting upon expected values and averages.
Risk averse behavior isn't always irrational; risk seeking behavior isn't always irrational either.

However, I would agree that it is important to understand the expectation and variance, then make your decisions based on that data.
Fair enough point. But may I also point out that trading is the risk-averse option and crafting is the risk-seeking option; there's no need to muddy crafting's waters with trading's predictability. There's also no need for a vendor formula; a risk-seeker and a risk-avoider can form a symbiosis where the seeker assumes the risk and the avoider pays a small premium over average costs as insurance. Using such free-market tools provides a more fair guaranteed 6L "formula" than any set-in-stone equation could ever provide.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
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ScrotieMcB escribió:
Fair enough point. But may I also point out that trading is the risk-averse option and crafting is the risk-seeking option; there's no need to muddy crafting's waters with trading's predictability. There's also no need for a vendor formula; a risk-seeker and a risk-avoider can form a symbiosis where the seeker assumes the risk and the avoider pays a small premium over average costs as insurance. Using such free-market tools provides a more fair guaranteed 6L "formula" than any set-in-stone equation could ever provide.


I agree.
IGN: SplitEpimorphism
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ScrotieMcB escribió:
Reliability is irrelevant; average cost is the key factor. At the end of the day what really matters is that the average 6L costs roughly 1k Fusings, the mean... not how large the standard deviation is.

All nonrandomness does is lead to hoarding/splurging cycles. With zero RNG and same mean, every Fusing is 0.1% on a progress bar (hoarding) then you hit 1k and you dump them all for a 6Ll (splurge). RNG actually disincentivizes hoarding because the first Fuse is just as likely to succeed as the 500th.

And hoarding leads to rich get richer, poor get poorer. No RNG, and only the 1k+ Fusing club have 6L, everyone else is SOL. At least with RNG some of the poor luck out and get that 6L. RNG is not a detriment, but a benefit for the casual player who hopes to possibly overtake the devoted no-lifer; without RNG, it's impossible.

RNG is fucking awesome. Stop disparaging it.


I might have enjoyed RNG crafting if it wasn't for the economy. For me personally there is no incentive to waste my orbs on a hope that I might strike gold when I can definitely come out ahead if I just search for deals and buy my own 5L's. Its pretty bad when someone can spend 1k fusings and not even get a 5L. 1K fusings is more than 30 exalts.....
Standard Forever
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syrioforel escribió:
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deteego escribió:

Its better evidence than the counter evidence


That's irrelevant. The burden of proof lies with the person making a claim. I'm not necessarily saying your conclusion is incorrect (to do so, I would need to prove counter-evidence), but I am questioning the validity of the argument you are making.


In other words, I am correct. I have provided evidence that supports my argument. Counter evidence is weak, or doesn't exist

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syrioforel escribió:

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And this falls apart when the evidence is removed, which is what GGG did


Then you have a problem.


Maybe, but its also GGG's problem and everyone elses problem. They removed access to the manifesto section (you get a permission denied), so thats not terribly helpful
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ScrotieMcB escribió:
Fair enough point. But may I also point out that trading is the risk-averse option and crafting is the risk-seeking option; there's no need to muddy crafting's waters with trading's predictability.


Which means this game is going to turn into D3, and its against the original goals that GGG designed, that is a game based around bartering and crafting rather than trading
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deteego escribió:

In other words, I am correct. I have provided evidence that supports my argument. Counter evidence is weak, or doesn't exist


... no. That's not how things work.

Here's a stupid as hell argument that I could make if that kind of reasoning were valid:

Claim: There are invisible gnomes in my room that only I can perceive.
Evidence: I saw them earlier. I took a photo but GGG came to my house and stole it.
Counter-evidence: None, because this is not falsifiable.

I guess I'm correct, because I have provided evidence that supports my argument. Counter evidence is weak, or doesn't exist.

This is total nonsense, of course. I don't need counter-evidence to poke holes in your argument, or to challenge your line of reasoning.

A lot of garbage conspiracy theories and pseudoscientific nonsense rely on similar fallacious reasoning. An often large quantity of low-quality evidence is presented, and it is pointed out that there is a lack of counter-evidence, so there must be something to what they are saying.

Anyway, it's late and I'm going to bed.
IGN: SplitEpimorphism
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ScrotieMcB escribió:
RNG actually disincentivizes hoarding because the first Fuse is just as likely to succeed as the 500th.


Wut? Have you tried to 6S or 5L/6L a piece of gear that you have no replacement for or all the replecements are sub-optimal? With all the wild RNG you need to hoard an insane amount of jews / fuses to be on the safe side, so that you dont ruin yourself.

If you craft, you must hoard insane amounts of orbs so that you try to maximize RNG luck. If you trade you must hoard orbs for big deals. If you play self-found, you must hoard everything until endgame, because orb drop rates are low and each orb used prior to that is a total waste. So, yeah, Path of Hoarding.

Insane RNG actually makes me to hoard more, because I dont know when Ill get the next orb - maybe in 1 hour, maybe in 1 month.

Gamblecrafting is garbage, because the whole game is centered around a gold-driven economy (even tho gold is called orbs here), exactly the same as D3. The failpath is the same for both games. You gamble with orbs in PoE, or gamble with gold in D2 or gamble with gold at the artisan in D3... same shyt..

Solution to most of PoE problems is increasing orb droprate and make them account bound, so there wont be a need for gold sink and trading will be really bartering, not the current gold-driven eco.
When night falls
She cloaks the world
In impenetrable darkness
Editado por útlima vez por morbo#1824 en 3 dic. 2013 5:19:01
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morbo escribió:
Solution to most of PoE problems is increasing orb droprate and make them account bound, so there wont be a need for gold sink and trading will be really bartering, not the current gold-driven eco.


This sounds like it could be very good, would like to see it.
Standard Forever
Y
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.

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