[2.2] A Storm of Ice and Fire - Avatar of Fire CI Whispering Ice - Uber Viable!

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Kelvynn escribió:

Spent 1ex to add ES to it and got a crappy roll of 10%, but this is already better than Astramentis, no?

It depends, but not really. You have 90 Int compared to ~116. 20 Int is actually pretty big, two nodes gone. Astramentis also boosts your Dex and Str, the latter of which is required for life leech. If you have to take a Dex or Str node as a result, that's also a huge loss. Any wasted node is a massive hit. The 10% ES is like 150-200 ES, so pretty much moot. It's nice but meh.

It also depends on the build. If you are running rares, then your amulet is likely better as it has that bonus damage on it. It more than makes up for the loss to Int. But if you're running uniques with the Perandus Signets, then that's a 4-6% Int loss right there. Anywhere from 20-40 Int.

Everything is tied to everything so it's really hard to say in general. It all depends... but fwiw, the all uniques build with legacy Perandus Signets is king. You can't touch it with rares no matter how good the rolls are. The uniques just generate too much Int.

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Kelvynn escribió:

Spent 1ex to add ES to it and got a crappy roll of 10%, but this is already better than Astramentis, no?

It depends, but not really. You have 90 Int compared to ~116. 20 Int is actually pretty big, two nodes gone. Astramentis also boosts your Dex and Str, the latter of which is required for life leech. If you have to take a Dex or Str node as a result, that's also a huge loss. Any wasted node is a massive hit. The 10% ES is like 150-200 ES, so pretty much moot. It's nice but meh.

It also depends on the build. If you are running rares, then your amulet is likely better as it has that bonus damage on it. It more than makes up for the loss to Int. But if you're running uniques with the Perandus Signets, then that's a 4-6% Int loss right there. Anywhere from 20-40 Int.

Everything is tied to everything so it's really hard to say in general. It all depends... but fwiw, the all uniques build with legacy Perandus Signets is king. You can't touch it with rares no matter how good the rolls are. The uniques just generate too much Int.

STR is not an issue, more than enough for max leech and TC. DEX is fine as well. Not taking any non-INT nodes.

This amulet is 90 INT, max roll (on Lapis) would be 112 INT (since we are comparing to max Astramentis 116 INT which is very rare and really expensive), so a loss of 4 INT which is nothing, but -4% INT from 2x Perandus, about 20-35 INT, so a total loss of let's say 25-40 INT. What's 40 INT? It's +4% spell dmg and +8% ES. Surely, if you get your hands on a well rolled amulet of this type (20%+ spell dmg, the top iLvl 76 prefix is 26%) you will want to spend 1-3ex for a good 15-20% ES roll. And whatever other 1-2 random stats you may get on it are pure bonus.

Looks like a good rare amulet is better than Astramentis even for the unique/perandus version of the build. Am I missing anything?

Now, the next logical question: is Perandus Signet really the best? +2% INT per unique, +45-65% mana regen, 45-55 mana, +2% xp (not sure how much that really means even if you do aim for lv 100).

Case 1: Astramentis + 2x Perandus. 116 * 1.18 = 136 INT, +4% INT (60-75 total), 90-110 mana, 90-130% mana regen.

Case 2: Rare amulet and rings (high rolls but not the top). Amulet: 100 INT, +20% spell dmg, +15% ES. Rings (each): 50 INT, +10% cold or fire dmg, +50% mana regen, +15% ES, plus random extra stats/resistances. Total: 200 * 1.18 = 236 INT, +40% dmg, +100% mana regen (or go for less regen but more raw mana), +45% ES, plus random extras. This totally blows Astramentis + 2x Perandus out of the water! Even with semi-decent rolls.

I've read through this whole thread again, and this noob question still bothers me: why convert to fire damage? Why not stay with cold?

Avatar of Fire + Snowforged + Cold To Fire: +126% Icestorm damage, for 10 tree nodes.

Heart of Ice + Iron Will : +121% Icestorm damage, +1% dmg for every 5 STR (hello, Astramentis!), +3% cold penetration, for 8 tree nodes. Plus the explosion on Herald of Ice actually working. Plus the freezing bonus on the cold Doryani's. And less mana cost (I love Iron Will!).

So... why convert to fire??

Avatar of Fire is 1 point, Snowforged is 3 points. That are 4 tree nodes for the Dmg%. The 10 Int points each also add up ~9% damage per node, don't forget that, and also don't forget that these points arent wasted at all if you go along that way anyways (I do for Sovereignity for example [Lowlife Whispering Ice]). Additionally, these INT nodes give ES and Mana. You can also pick up Fire and Frostwalker nodes, which will give you more options for more dmg%.

The Heart of Ice cluster costs 5 Nodes for DMG only. There is no additional Mana or ES gained.

That means:
Heart of Ice is 71% DMG for 5 points. Lets be generous and say 80% dmg, because of the 3% penetration, that will be 80/5= ~16%dmg per node and thats it.

Avatar of Fire and Snowforged is 76% damage for 4 points, so we have 76/4=19% damage per node.

We actually don't need to calculate the INT to travel there, because we want to stack INT anyways, but if you say we should do so, by your values, we have:

8 points needed for HoI + way its 80+(9*3) = 107%
10 points needed for AoF & SF means 76%+(9*6) = 130%



A lvl 20 CtF gives 50% extra damage (10C, 10F, 30 additional F). A 20/20 Iron Will gives 48% dmg (38lvl, 10q). Now lets say we have 150 STR, so we get an additional 30% from Iron will, and that's about it. CtF otoh will let us have all these fire and cold modifiers to 100% value, which will add up to a lot more dmg than Iron Will is able to.



I think we can savely ignore the Doryani argument, because there also exist Fire Doryanis.



Ice gives you shattering and and additional defense layer (freezing) in an already save build.

Converting to Fire gives you way more DPS. Both are valid ways to play, but Fire definitely outclasses Ice in terms of damage.

Guys,
Is the skill gem combo change in 2.1 or is it still the same as in 2.0?
Thanks

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Kelvynn escribió:

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Kelvynn escribió:

Spent 1ex to add ES to it and got a crappy roll of 10%, but this is already better than Astramentis, no?

It depends, but not really. You have 90 Int compared to ~116. 20 Int is actually pretty big, two nodes gone. Astramentis also boosts your Dex and Str, the latter of which is required for life leech. If you have to take a Dex or Str node as a result, that's also a huge loss. Any wasted node is a massive hit. The 10% ES is like 150-200 ES, so pretty much moot. It's nice but meh.

It also depends on the build. If you are running rares, then your amulet is likely better as it has that bonus damage on it. It more than makes up for the loss to Int. But if you're running uniques with the Perandus Signets, then that's a 4-6% Int loss right there. Anywhere from 20-40 Int.

Everything is tied to everything so it's really hard to say in general. It all depends... but fwiw, the all uniques build with legacy Perandus Signets is king. You can't touch it with rares no matter how good the rolls are. The uniques just generate too much Int.

STR is not an issue, more than enough for max leech and TC. DEX is fine as well. Not taking any non-INT nodes.

This amulet is 90 INT, max roll (on Lapis) would be 112 INT (since we are comparing to max Astramentis 116 INT which is very rare and really expensive), so a loss of 4 INT which is nothing, but -4% INT from 2x Perandus, about 20-35 INT, so a total loss of let's say 25-40 INT. What's 40 INT? It's +4% spell dmg and +8% ES. Surely, if you get your hands on a well rolled amulet of this type (20%+ spell dmg, the top iLvl 76 prefix is 26%) you will want to spend 1-3ex for a good 15-20% ES roll. And whatever other 1-2 random stats you may get on it are pure bonus.

Looks like a good rare amulet is better than Astramentis even for the unique/perandus version of the build. Am I missing anything?

Now, the next logical question: is Perandus Signet really the best? +2% INT per unique, +45-65% mana regen, 45-55 mana, +2% xp (not sure how much that really means even if you do aim for lv 100).

Case 1: Astramentis + 2x Perandus. 116 * 1.18 = 136 INT, +4% INT (60-75 total), 90-110 mana, 90-130% mana regen.

Case 2: Rare amulet and rings (high rolls but not the top). Amulet: 100 INT, +20% spell dmg, +15% ES. Rings (each): 50 INT, +10% cold or fire dmg, +50% mana regen, +15% ES, plus random extra stats/resistances. Total: 200 * 1.18 = 236 INT, +40% dmg, +100% mana regen (or go for less regen but more raw mana), +45% ES, plus random extras. This totally blows Astramentis + 2x Perandus out of the water! Even with semi-decent rolls.

Your math is off. First off, PS provides added % bonuses, you can't measure their value on the amulet alone. It's a cumulative gain, so you have to look at the whole Int pool vs the added 4% (or 6%) for the amulet slot.

Say you have 100% unique gear. That's 9 slots, so 9*4%, for a 36% Int bonus. You have a base 1700 Int pool. 1700*1.36=2312. Now you take off Astra and throw on a perfect rare. Your Int pool is now slightly less, say 1684. So 1684*1.32 (since we no longer get the PS bonuses for that slot)=2222. You lost almost 100 Int! Like I said, you can add additional stats on the rare, like the boost to % damage, which will no doubt put you ahead on dps, but you lose other things. If you run a unique build, you won't be able to make up the lost Dex for example.

In any case, you're losing 4% off the top of your total Int (or 6% if you're running the legacy rings). Not for nothing but the huge mana regen is amazing too.

Astros aren't really that expensive. Like 3-4 ex rn on standard. I checked for perfect rares and found one with nearly max Int, though not much else, for like double that. I'm pretty sure a gg rare is going to cost you way more.

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Your math is off. First off, PS provides added % bonuses, you can't measure their value on the amulet alone. It's a cumulative gain, so you have to look at the whole Int pool vs the added 4% (or 6%) for the amulet slot.

Say you have 100% unique gear. That's 9 slots, so 9*4%, for a 36% Int bonus. You have a base 1700 Int pool. 1700*1.36=2312. Now you take off Astra and throw on a perfect rare. Your Int pool is now slightly less, say 1684. So 1684*1.32 (since we no longer get the PS bonuses for that slot)=2222. You lost almost 100 Int! Like I said, you can add additional stats on the rare, like the boost to % damage, which will no doubt put you ahead on dps, but you lose other things. If you run a unique build, you won't be able to make up the lost Dex for example.

In any case, you're losing 4% off the top of your total Int (or 6% if you're running the legacy rings). Not for nothing but the huge mana regen is amazing too.

Wrong. By replacing 1 unique with a rare with the same Int, you lose 4% of your UNMODIFIED Int, not your total Int.

You get 1700 Int after multiplying your (Base Int + Gear Int) x (1.00 + 0.18 + (0.04 * U) ) where U is the number of uniques and 0.18 is from WI.

A build with 9 uniques is hardly feasible, you'd lose way too much resists and ES. Baalorlord's 5 uniques is much more sensible. His Int multiplier is 1.38. He has 1620 Int in the original post. Meaning his unmodified Int = 1620 / 1.38 = 1173. If he replaces Astra with a 100 Int rare amulet, he will lose 16 + 1173*0.04 = 63 Int. I was off by underestimating it at 40, but you are off by even more in the other direction.

So, -63 Int loss? That's -6% WI spell damage, -31 mana and -12% ES. Nothing else. There are no other bonuses of any kind from Int.

I maintain that you can get a lot more value than 6% spell dmg and 12% ES from a good rare amulet.

I was wrong about the rings though. Losing 2x Perandus would lose not just the 2x4% Int bonus from them, but also 4% on WI and 4% on the belt. And that totals to over 200 Int. Plus the nice mana and regen on the Perandus'es. Two rare rings, even very good ones, won't compensate for that.

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The 10 Int points each also add up ~9% damage per node, don't forget that

How? I don't see it anywhere in this thread, must have missed it somewhere?
WI gives +1% spell damage per 10 Int (ok, 1.38% with 5 uniques including 2 PS). Where is the other ~8% coming from? Please explain.

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A lvl 20 CtF gives 50% extra damage (10C, 10F, 30 additional F). A 20/20 Iron Will gives 48% dmg (38lvl, 10q). Now lets say we have 150 STR, so we get an additional 30% from Iron will, and that's about it. CtF otoh will let us have all these fire and cold modifiers to 100% value, which will add up to a lot more dmg than Iron Will is able to.

I already counted all that. 21/20 CtF is +50% dmg. 21/20 Iron Will is the same +50% plus the 30% Str bonus (with 150 Str) on top of that. Iron Will is clearly superior to CtF as a support gem. The reason CtF is used is to achieve the 100% conversion to fire damage. And the reason for that is to double dip into fire and cold damage bonuses on Snowforged.

Snowforged is +76%, CtF is +50%, the total is +126%.

Heart of Ice is +71% (+80% if penetration is that good), Iron Will is +80%, the total is +160%.

I don't understand your argument about the node value. AoF + Snowforged is 4 nodes. Heart of Ice is 5 nodes. You can divide their +dmg value by that, but the difference between CtF and Iron Will is more significant. And all pathing to them is Int nodes, so that doesn't make a difference. You can save a couple of those by going for HoI and get some value from them elsewhere.

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Kelvynn escribió:

And the reason for that is to double dip into fire and cold damage bonuses on Snowforged.

Snowforged is +76%, CtF is +50%, the total is +126%.

Well it also opens up cold and fire damage jewels. Keep that in mind, but well rolled jewels are not readily available in talisman and so IW route might be the better option. Especially when we start to consider HoI + ice bite.

EDIT: Also you would lose fire walker node for another 18% dmg. The difference isn't really worth splitting hairs over and I would say the AoF comes out in front with GG jewels, but IW + HoI + freeze utility certainly makes a case for itself.

EDIT: Isn't the added fire damage from CtF a more multiplier, rather than in your example an increased? If the former is correct that would make AoF well superior for damage no?

double post