Stupid logic against nerfs, logout macros etc...

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Sarno escribió:

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Temeritas escribió:

The issue with this is the standard logout macros uses the logout command from the menu. Which is by far faster than just disconnecting(it terminates the connection directly iirc, thus the time until you are save is basically only your latency). If you disconnect on the other hand the server waits some time until your connection times out(which by its nature has to be longer, else you would "logout" everytime your ping is unstable).

This is a combination of objectively false claims and bad advice.

First of all, unless I am very much mistaken, the most commonly used macro is Lutbot - and the reason for this is TCP Disconnect. Lutbot doesn't do anything inside the game client; it uses Windows DLL files to close the socket, terminating the connection.

The best case scenario for using the game client is that Lutbot is faster because it doesn't sit in the queue of instructions the client is processing. Worst case scenario for using the game client is the client hangs and no longer responds to user input, in which case Lutbot is more reliable. Under no circumstances would I expect the game client to be faster.

Also, my understanding - and I have researched PoE macros quite a lot - is that one which operates by opening the game menu, moving the mouse cursor to a specific location, then clicking on the button would be against the rules and could result in an account ban.

I never researched logout macros, because i think they are horrible gamedesign wise and i refuse to use them, so i cant say which is the fastest or savest, i just gathered some infos about them while reading the board/reddit. And in the end it doesn't matter at all in regards to the core issue of my post, where the issue is the lack of a delay for any instant disconnect command, be it the menu-logout, alt+f4 or a direct tcp-disconnect.

Regardless of the way in which the macro achieves the "disconnect"-save, an added delay will make it useless without hurting playes that suffer an actual disconnect from connectivity issues.

And just in case i did some digging because i faintly remembered Chris saying that using a macro to use the menu logout is perfectly legal.Here is the link to the post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/226bax/logout_macro_no_longer_allowed_yeran_ggg/

Probably because opening the menu is just a local action, where as macros are only ever allowed to trigger one server side action

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Fapmobile escribió:

Logout macro obviously doesn't effect other people, but an auction house would have an effect in the whole economy. Same with op skills making other skill less desirable.

You're comparing weird things here and also calling people stupid. Not very nice of you my son.

lol? logout macro saved ur life = other player without it would die in ur place. Its like cheat, u know. While normal players just die if they fail - this macro users survive and farm more and more with no worries. Thats not fair. Better just sell godmode button for 1 wisdom scrolls.

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Temeritas escribió:

And just in case i did some digging because i faintly remembered Chris saying that using a macro to use the menu logout is perfectly legal.Here is the link to the post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/226bax/logout_macro_no_longer_allowed_yeran_ggg/

Heh, "lol I'm out" packet. Classic Chris.

He did say that, but it was April 2014 which is almost five years ago - I'd definitely recommend asking Support for up-to-date information before you risk it. I asked them on the 12th of August last year whether I could use a macro which "which positions the mouse cursor in a specific location before left-clicking", and the response later that day said it would "definitely constitute botting" and that "it would place your account at risk of being banned".

when it comes to exiting the game: ggg cleared that up some years ago

the fastest way to disconnect is using a tool that does it outside poe like lootbot. it just injects a TCP_FIN packet into your connection. for the client it's like the server closed the connection, the server thinks the client sent the disconnect packet.

second fastest method is using alt+f4 on the game client which lets windows shut down the game the hard way and close the network sockets, the game's resource deallocation is also done by windows. pretty instant too.

the slowest method is to logout from the game or close the game by using the game's exit menu because the game itself is loading/deallocating it's resources itself which is in a certain order and network doesn't seem to be the first thing on the list.

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in the first 2 methods, there is no way the server can differentiate between the individual method used.

the last method is likely a soft shutdown which uses the slow 3 way handshake to gracefully shut down the connection. pretty slow.

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Sarno escribió:

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Temeritas escribió:

And just in case i did some digging because i faintly remembered Chris saying that using a macro to use the menu logout is perfectly legal.Here is the link to the post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/226bax/logout_macro_no_longer_allowed_yeran_ggg/

Heh, "lol I'm out" packet. Classic Chris.

He did say that, but it was April 2014 which is almost five years ago - I'd definitely recommend asking Support for up-to-date information before you risk it. I asked them on the 12th of August last year whether I could use a macro which "which positions the mouse cursor in a specific location before left-clicking", and the response later that day said it would "definitely constitute botting" and that "it would place your account at risk of being banned".

No need to ask if i never even consider Using them. But your injection in regards to mouse movement is only relevant if the macro requires mouse movement. It shouldnt be an issue to send a "click_at_coord_x_y" to your system via the macrotool. (heck it took my 3 minutes of googling to find the responsible ahk command(controlclick in case you are curious))
This way you didnt move your mouse and only performed one serverside action => no issue.


And again that still doesnt matter for the point at hand:

Adding a delay to any disconnect command equal to the duration it takes for the server to detect a regular disconnect => logout-macro abuse fixed without hurting players with bad connections.

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vio escribió:

when it comes to exiting the game: ggg cleared that up some years ago

the fastest way to disconnect is using a tool that does it outside poe like lootbot. it just injects a TCP_FIN packet into your connection. for the client it's like the server closed the connection, the server thinks the client sent the disconnect packet.

second fastest method is using alt+f4 on the game client which lets windows shut down the game the hard way and close the network sockets, the game's resource deallocation is also done by windows. pretty instant too.

the slowest method is to logout from the game or close the game by using the game's exit menu because the game itself is loading/deallocating it's resources itself which is in a certain order and network doesn't seem to be the first thing on the list.

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in the first 2 methods, there is no way the server can differentiate between the individual method used.

the last method is likely a soft shutdown which uses the slow 3 way handshake to gracefully shut down the connection. pretty slow.

According to the tests done by some players in the thread i posted earlier the ig option(to login, not charselection) was faster than alt+f4. But in any case, directly closing the connection should be the fastest option.

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KZA escribió:

There's a pretty moronic argument that takes on a variety of forms that has been floating around for many years, and I think it's time we put it to rest:

"If you don't like OP skills, don't play them, but don't ruin my fun by nerfing them."

"If you don't like logout macros, don't use them, but my using them doesn't affect you."

"If you don't like the auction house, then don't use it, but I want easy trading and it doesn't affect you."

By this logic, why not provide a godmode option in the menu? Why not have items that oneshot Shaper sold by vendors for a wisdom scroll? Why not enable the ability to start with a level 100 character if desired? Why not make Mirrors of Kalandra as common as a chaos orb? Why not give us access to console commands to generate any items we want? If you don't like it, then just don't use it.

If you still can't see why the above logic is utterly stupid, I don't know that you'd have the mental capacity to understand an explanation. Put simply, a balanced and challenging game is the most rewarding to play, and having access to OP skills, items or "permitted exploits" makes using anything less powerful feel bad and unfun.

This is the same faulty logic behind old classic arguments like:

"You dont need an offical hardcore mode, just delete your character when you die."

"You dont need SSF mode, just don't group with other players and it's the exact same thing."

Moaning.

Other's builds doesn't affects you directly. Only if GGG creates new end-game content for some extremely OP and expensive builds. And seems they are.

And nobody around forces you to play HC or SSF - this is your game and your will.

But if someone popping around and starting demnads to nerf i.e. Arc (but the main problem is Traps not Arc) - he is trying to FORCE others to play like HE want.

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SilverWF escribió:

Moaning.

Other's builds doesn't affects you directly. Only if GGG creates new end-game content for some extremely OP and expensive builds. And seems they are.

And nobody around forces you to play HC or SSF - this is your game and your will.

But if someone popping around and starting demnads to nerf i.e. Arc (but the main problem is Traps not Arc) - he is trying to FORCE others to play like HE want.

Also i don't agree with the wording OP chose, at its core he is right.
Having some very strong skills/items/mechanics etc. influences everyone, even though you dont directly see it.

Just the fact alone, that some builds farm 10 times as fast as others because they are just that much stronger without actually requiering more investment is an issue. It might not be if a) GGG would never design the game around them and b) the whole game were SSF.

But as long as any part of the game has to take the extremely powerful builds into consideration weaker builds will not stand a chance or at least will be multiple times harder to pull off.(e.g. try shaper with a very low dps but usually tanky build, the difficulty difference is absurd).

And i think i don't have to mention the importance of beeing able to farm and thus trade in PoE.

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Temeritas escribió:

But your injection in regards to mouse movement is only relevant if the macro requires mouse movement. It shouldnt be an issue to send a "click_at_coord_x_y" to your system

You can't be serious...

Okay, let's create two of these macros. You're a low level Witch, your only skill is Fireball, and it's a dangerous challenge league so you're kiting while you try to find better gear.

Macro one includes the coordinates of the center of the screen. We'll bind this to X. Macro two has the coordinates of a point near the bottom of the screen. We'll bind this to Y. Let's spam X and Y. The result? Your character runs away from enemies while actively casting Fireball at them. You spam two buttons, and your character actively casts Fireball in one direction while moving in another. Your projectiles are being aimed, your character is moving in a specific direction - but you're not controlling any of this. It's all totally automated.

I told you of a macro which Support claimed "would definitely constitute botting" and... you made it worse. Do you really believe that this is okay? That it would be allowed?

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Temeritas escribió:

This way you didnt move your mouse and only performed one serverside action => no issue.

A rule cannot authorize an action. If there were no rules, you could do whatever you want. They're inherently a form of limitation; they can reduce agency, but never increase it.

If you'd like an example of why this kind of argument fundamentally doesn't work, consider a chicken script. This is a kind of macro which automatically logs you out when your character's health drops to a certain percentage of their maximum health. This is very obviously not permitted - it is literally automated, and provides a very strong advantage over other players - and yet... it's not moving the mouse or performing multiple server-side actions.

Temeritas, what you're asking is for a character to stand around defenseless for several seconds after logout no matter what. This is essentially equivalent to "if you lose connection at any time for any reason in a combat area - legitimate connection trouble or not - your Hardcore character dies."

You may as well skip the middleman and simply program it into the game - connection drops unexpectedly in a combat zone? Character automatically moves to Standard, regardless of whether it was attacked or not. Because having the character standing around with its thumb up its ass for half a minute regardless of how you lose connection is pretty much exactly identical to simply making it a hardcoded rule than any connection interruptions equal a drop to Standard.

The way you're asking Grinding Gear to do it, hardcore becomes the exclusive purview of those with ironclad internet in countries with Neutrality protections. No dice. If that was what Grinding Gear/the hardcore guys wanted, it would've been done that way.

Who needs a macro for esc/click?