[3.11] Shaper = Stunned, Tidebreaker Heavy Strike Stunner Build

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Mothaba escribió:
I'm interested in playing perma-stun this league but these 2 lines from the patch notes are making me nervous :


- "Rare monsters now have 33% more life at level 1, up to 100% more life at level 68 and above. They now grant 54% more experience."

- "Enemies with shields can block attacks, but will only prevent a large portion of the incoming damage, rather than all of it."


does it mean that high life + block monsters won't be easily stunned ?


We never have to worry about stunning rares, they will always be stunned easily. With good gears, the right concern to have should look like: "can I consistently stun Shaper without popping flasks?"

Since blocking only mitigate a portion of damage instead of avoiding all of it, I believe in most cases we will stun them through block. Rares just have so much less life when compared to bosses like Shaper.

In your thoughts for Multistrike you mention that you think it is a nerf for perma stun. However as we know that multistrike no longer penalizes damage and the 3rd round of multistrikes will all be (basically) ruthless. How is Multistrike anything but a buff?

it gives 44% more attack speed for all hits and then 50%/99% more damage for the next two hits, while yes slightly less consistent the big takeaway is that over 3 hits the gem give both 44% more attack speed and an average of 50% more damage per hit which is more than any other support gem mathematically. take the the example of heavy strike linked to multi + ruthless vs ruthless + Melee phys damage.

if you deal 1000 damage 2 times per second with heavy strike

with ruthless and multi you will now deal 1000+1500+1999 followed by 1000+1500+1999 followed by 2320+3480+4616 damage over 8.64 seconds (2245.95 dps)

vs

with ruthless and mpd you now deal 1490+1490+3456 followed by 1490+1490+3456 damage over 7 seconds. (1838.86 dps)

I mean it seems obvious to me that even the best non-conditional support (mpd) is worse than the new multistrike which is almost a better version of what ruthless is and auto ramps because you will notice that even the non-ruthless portions of multistrike are better for stunning than the majority of the in between ruthless strikes. i.e. the last strike of each mutlistrike is 1999 whereas the middle strikes of the non-multistrike is 1490 (making each multi end strike 33% better than each mpd non-ruthless strike). Yes you go from 2 super big hits every 7-8 seconds to 1, but you raise the midstrikes.

Obviously yes multi is best for dps I also argue that its great for perma stun because in perma stun its all about fishing for the highest highs as consistently as possible.

On another unrelated note, what about crit based perma stun using the new keystone that replaces point-blank that gives lucky crit chance + lucky crit damage? Abyssus?
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Shrie escribió:
In your thoughts for Multistrike you mention that you think it is a nerf for perma stun. However as we know that multistrike no longer penalizes damage and the 3rd round of multistrikes will all be (basically) ruthless. How is Multistrike anything but a buff?

it gives 44% more attack speed for all hits and then 50%/99% more damage for the next two hits, while yes slightly less consistent the big takeaway is that over 3 hits the gem give both 44% more attack speed and an average of 50% more damage per hit which is more than any other support gem mathematically. take the the example of heavy strike linked to multi + ruthless vs ruthless + Melee phys damage.

if you deal 1000 damage 2 times per second with heavy strike

with ruthless and multi you will now deal 1000+1500+1999 followed by 1000+1500+1999 followed by 2320+3480+4616 damage over 8.64 seconds (2245.95 dps)

vs

with ruthless and mpd you now deal 1490+1490+3456 followed by 1490+1490+3456 damage over 7 seconds. (1838.86 dps)

I mean it seems obvious to me that even the best non-conditional support (mpd) is worse than the new multistrike which is almost a better version of what ruthless is and auto ramps because you will notice that even the non-ruthless portions of multistrike are better for stunning than the majority of the in between ruthless strikes. i.e. the last strike of each mutlistrike is 1999 whereas the middle strikes of the non-multistrike is 1490 (making each multi end strike 33% better than each mpd non-ruthless strike). Yes you go from 2 super big hits every 7-8 seconds to 1, but you raise the midstrikes.

Obviously yes multi is best for dps I also argue that its great for perma stun because in perma stun its all about fishing for the highest highs as consistently as possible.

On another unrelated note, what about crit based perma stun using the new keystone that replaces point-blank that gives lucky crit chance + lucky crit damage? Abyssus?


I sort of missed the Multistrike section when reading the patch notes yesterday. I thought it would be bad because previously it was said to deal "double damage" on the 3rd strike. That would not co-exist very well with our Heavy Strike.

It turns out to deal 50% more damage on the 2nd strike, and 99% more on the 3rd. Now I agree it can be pretty good.

But I believe Multistrike will still have a 30% damage penalty. So the numbers will be:

700+1050+1400 + 700+1050+1400 + 1624+2436+3231

instead of 1490+1490+3456

Now is it good for perma-stun? We can't tell for sure right now. Many factors play a role in this calculation: your damage range, enemy's effective hp, your attack speed and stun duration and chance to double stun duration, etc.

The only way to tell is by my simulation code, which requires some update. Also, we need the gem details to see our exact DPS numbers.

I will probably have some early conclusion tomorrow.

EDIT: forgot about your question about crit.

I think this build is in a stage when our stun capability isn't our biggest concern. Also because of the nature of a stun build, we don't care about DPS too much either - as long as we can stun the enemy, who cares if Shaper is done in 3 minutes or 2 minutes.

Going crit is definitely viable now, which really boosts our DPS, but I am having trouble finding how this extra DPS is gonna help. I think it's generally better to not invest into accuracy, crit chance and crit multi; instead we can invest a lot into life and attack speed - which translates to safer and faster mapping.
Editado por útlima vez por brightwaha en 5 jun. 2019 20:03:59
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brightwaha escribió:
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de_Lioncourt escribió:
Hi! I really like your build and I changed a little your skilltree. Please take a look and say what you think:

https://ibb.co/VvBWPKV

- In cluster #1 I choose to pick only the firste node - 5% incr stun duration per end charge.
- I think, if you take slayer then cluster #2 with leech is very helpful for you.
- In cluster #3 I choose to take path by picking 1 node with dmg and attack speed insted of two with aoe.
- I plan to use fortify gem in main skill since it was buffed and gives 34% more damage now. And cluster #4 seems really worthy to invest in. It was buffed and now gives 20% incr fortify effect and good amount of attack speed and damage.
- In cluster #5 I choose to take only right part because it gives more damage output and 20 stun duration. Left part gives some damage and area - not worthy in my opinion.
- Finally I doubt about picking the Stun Mastery cluster (#6). With the last patch we get more damage and 125% effectivness of damage stun-wise. May be two clusters with Spinecruncher and Kinetic Impacts will compensate?

I play HC btw.

Many good arguments here. Below are my thoughts:

-I wouldn't pay too much attention on stun duration, as it in most cases is not needed.
-Yes the leech cluster can be helpful to Slayer. But because we're playing a stun build, it won't help as much as other Slayer builds.
-The Fortify node still doesn't seem too good to me, but considering you're playing HC, I agree it can be a good choice.
-About Stun Mastery, I think it really depends on your gears. Stun Mastery is much better than Kinetic Impacts considering only stunning, but Kinetic Impacts also offers some DPS. I think for people with bad gears and high ambitions, they should pick both; for people with really good gears, they can ignore both of them.


I concede your point about the Rampart cluster for Fortify. It is indeed pretty good if you have Fortify in your 6-link.
Never played a stun build before.

What are you planning to use as a clearing 4L? I'm planning EQ and are there any good pseudo 5Ls from gear for a clearing setup?

Hopefully Pulverize is good I'm looking forward to that + inc aoe.
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Boner_Patrol escribió:
Never played a stun build before.

What are you planning to use as a clearing 4L? I'm planning EQ and are there any good pseudo 5Ls from gear for a clearing setup?

Hopefully Pulverize is good I'm looking forward to that + inc aoe.


I always go for Tabula first, then a 5-link Tidebreaker. Probably using either Sunder or Ground Slam.

A problem with EQ is that there is a delay before you can do any substantial damage. Also the AoE is usually centered around yourself and you have to leap slam into the center of the pack. This usually means that you will have to tank mobs' damage before stunning them.

Maybe with the new Pulverize and more access to AoE, it's no longer a big problem any more, we will see.
I am wanting to really try the crit path on the slayer, but I have never played a stun build before so it could just be my interests getting muddled.

What are your thoughts on going into some bleed nodes? Similar question about impale nodes.
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pigpill escribió:
I am wanting to really try the crit path on the slayer, but I have never played a stun build before so it could just be my interests getting muddled.

What are your thoughts on going into some bleed nodes? Similar question about impale nodes.


Ive played a lot of stun builds and the entire point is to hit hard 1 time to ensure the stun happens. If you get bleed via vulnerability or impale through dreadbanner then its a form of low investment extra damage sure... but it doesnt help stun the boss at all (edge case being Bloodlust vs bleeding target). So generally speaking going anywhere out of your way for impale or bleeding is going to make the uptime on your stun suffer.

Just wondering what people are thinking in terms of clearing?

Tectonic Slam vs Ground Slam vs Sunder? I typically use sunder as my clear skill but tectonic slam seems to have that "I hit the whole screen" sexiness. Ground Slam feels underwhelming compared to the other two.
Editado por útlima vez por Shrie en 6 jun. 2019 0:41:55
2h sword viable ?
GEM INFO OUT:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2514087

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