ZiggyD's Etheral Knives Mana Shield Scion/Shadow Build Guide - Hardcore (Updated for 1.1)

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Kaji_K07 escribió:

So just curious why you went for Iron Reflexes when all your gear is armor/ES. Whats the point if your not using any evasion gear.

Grace

Would like to know whether replacing Faster Projectiles with the buffed Added Chaos Damage, and offsetting it with a high proj speed wand + Ballistic Mastery will yield a higher dps?

Also curious whether anyone managed to include Righteous Fire into the build.

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DtAndroid escribió:

Would like to know whether replacing Faster Projectiles with the buffed Added Chaos Damage, and offsetting it with a high proj speed wand + Ballistic Mastery will yield a higher dps?

Also curious whether anyone managed to include Righteous Fire into the build.

Some people like the Ballistic Mastery node, and some don't. Faster projectiles (With a +Qgem like you would have late game) Basically fills 3 needs. A level 20 gem (With Quality) would have
%69 speed (Really the only place you need it at max)
%19 increased damage
%10 cast speed

You're not just comparing that to a single gem, you are comparing it to changing your gear, re-speccing your tree, etc. Assuming you have already gone Charisma, you will spend 3 more nodes just to get mastery. That's a lot of points for not a lot of results.

As far as mastery itself goes, the +Dex is a wash and really doesn't benefit the build. The 15% damage is ok but not great, and the 20% speed by itself isn't enough to do anything with. So then you need a lot of speed on your wand. Getting a wand with Sp Dmg/Cast Speed/Projectile Speed (All with good rolls) is very difficult, and also rare on nemesis. Where you could find a wand with a really high Spell Damage along with a good cast speed much easier, and at likely a better price. So now you likely have a higher SpDmg Wand, + the projectile speed/castspeed/dmg on faster projectiles. What you do with those remaining 3 nodes is up to you. Use it for more life, or more cast speed, etc. Even if you got a wand with all 3 stats, your projectile speed with that and mastery still won't be as high as it would if you just had the faster proj gem. 70% or so is what you need to go to the ends of the screen.

CounterStryke posted a lengthy description on this here

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CounterStryke escribió:

Now let's analyze the right side of the tree. I condone taking Charisma (I will discuss that later), but there is no reason to go so deep into the Ranger area. I assume you (and many others) really want Ballistic Mastery, but it is in fact not that good of a node even if you've already made your way to Charisma. Indeed, you are spending 3 points from the Charisma ring to get 20% projectile speed, 15% damage, and 20 Dex. First, you do not need the Dex; the 40 Dex you get on your way to Charisma together with the 100 Dex you get on your way to IR/MoM means you only need an Onyx Amulet to run Grace at max level. Second, you do not need the projectile speed; your EK will just reach the left/right edge of the screen with a high level Faster Projectiles, and this is more than adequate in my opinion. So, taking Ballistic Mastery is essentially equivalent to spending 3 points for 15% increased damage, which is clearly not worth it."

I personally find that other options in the tree are more valuable than anything beyond the Charisma wheel, but that is based on a Nemesis character.

I disagree with that statement strongly. I tried respecing out of Ballistic Mastery, but even at 20/20 Faster Projectiles, without some Projectile Speed on your wand, I feel it's a great boon. Just feels very different without it, and I can't hit enemies off-screen before they reach me if I lose it - which I can do now.

Projectile Speed is what makes you a Ranged build instead of a Melee build. For all my layers of defense, I still prefer to not facetank the whole world.

Also, it's easier to aim and it reaches the target faster.

In other words, if you move/warp a lot and don't play like a retarded-melee character, it's a very nice boost.

Love this guide... so well put together. Right now Im level 58, with 5L chest doing 1600 dps with EK (Is that a bit low?). Ran into Xandro on first map of Act 2 Merciless. Obliterated me. Ridiculous seeing him here.

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CantripN escribió:

I disagree with that statement strongly. I tried respecing out of Ballistic Mastery, but even at 20/20 Faster Projectiles, without some Projectile Speed on your wand, I feel it's a great boon. Just feels very different without it, and I can't hit enemies off-screen before they reach me if I lose it - which I can do now.

Projectile Speed is what makes you a Ranged build instead of a Melee build. For all my layers of defense, I still prefer to not facetank the whole world.

Also, it's easier to aim and it reaches the target faster.

In other words, if you move/warp a lot and don't play like a retarded-melee character, it's a very nice boost.

While Projectile Speed is what makes you ranged instead of melee, a 20% decrease in Projectile Speed does not suddenly reduce you to a "retarded melee character" -- a healthy amount of kiting is still easily accomplished. (I mean let's get real: HC Freeze Pulse builds have been around since the dawn of the game and no one complains about it being a "retarded melee build." Sure you get to freeze things with FP, but you also get to freeze and/or two shot most things with EK + Hatred.) The exaggeration regarding ranged capabilities notwithstanding, those demanding Projectile Speed should keep in mind that it might be more profitable to get a wand, slightly subpar in damage but with Projectile Speed, and either a DPS shield and spend the 3 points defensively (e.g., IF), or a defensive shield and spend to 3 points offensively (e.g., Nimbleness, Path of Savant).

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CounterStryke escribió:

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CantripN escribió:

I disagree with that statement strongly. I tried respecing out of Ballistic Mastery, but even at 20/20 Faster Projectiles, without some Projectile Speed on your wand, I feel it's a great boon. Just feels very different without it, and I can't hit enemies off-screen before they reach me if I lose it - which I can do now.

Projectile Speed is what makes you a Ranged build instead of a Melee build. For all my layers of defense, I still prefer to not facetank the whole world.

Also, it's easier to aim and it reaches the target faster.

In other words, if you move/warp a lot and don't play like a retarded-melee character, it's a very nice boost.

While Projectile Speed is what makes you ranged instead of melee, a 20% decrease in Projectile Speed does not suddenly reduce you to a "retarded melee character" -- a healthy amount of kiting is still easily accomplished. (I mean let's get real: HC Freeze Pulse builds have been around since the dawn of the game and no one complains about it being a "retarded melee build." Sure you get to freeze things with FP, but you also get to freeze and/or two shot most things with EK + Hatred.) The exaggeration regarding ranged capabilities notwithstanding, those demanding Projectile Speed should keep in mind that it might be more profitable to get a wand, slightly subpar in damage but with Projectile Speed, and either a DPS shield and spend the 3 points defensively (e.g., IF), or a defensive shield and spend to 3 points offensively (e.g., Nimbleness, Path of Savant).

If I could get a wand with 85 Spell Damage, 16 Cast Speed, 35% Projectile Speed, maybe.

But with what I have, there's no way I'll take a spell back to that:


And yes, I really felt the loss of those 20%. Not sure I'd need more than that, though.

@damelon: I get your argument, but what faster projectiles has in terms of damage is more or less offsetted by ballistic mastery. A wand with top end proj speed is abt 40%, yielding a close enough value comparable to faster projectile. Hence the only difference would be perhaps a cast speed roll on wand + 10% cast speed on 20q FP as an opportunity cost to roughly an average of 200 raw unbuffed damage from Added Chaos. Can't test stuff now but will try it once I get my hands on the necessary eq, playing on Garena's Hardcore league so things are slightly slower there :/

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DtAndroid escribió:

@damelon: I get your argument, but what faster projectiles has in terms of damage is more or less offsetted by ballistic mastery. A wand with top end proj speed is abt 40%, yielding a close enough value comparable to faster projectile. Hence the only difference would be perhaps a cast speed roll on wand + 10% cast speed on 20q FP as an opportunity cost to roughly an average of 200 raw unbuffed damage from Added Chaos. Can't test stuff now but will try it once I get my hands on the necessary eq, playing on Garena's Hardcore league so things are slightly slower there :/

Depends on how much Cast Speed you have already. Those values are fluid, after all.

But if you can get a wand with +40% Speed AND good Spell Damage AND good Cast Speed AND get Ballstic Mastery...

Then, yeah, that might be good. But don't forget Faster Projectiles also has 19% Projectile Damage, not just 10% Cast Speed.

Problem is, that sort of wand doesn't really exist, except maybe on Standard.