ELE LIGHTNING STRIKE - ALL T16s, Shaper, Uber Atziri, HOGM, Chayula, Elder

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mvm199 escribió:

my point is just that - you avoid certain maps an armor / block tank wouldnt because when the hit in question gets through, 99% chance you are one shot, and no LOH or vaal pact in the world can resurrect you from a one shot because of a very low hp / armor ratio.

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mvm199 escribió:

What im trying to argue here is that this build is very inferior to an armour stacking build in general as it has to avoid certain combinations of maps the other build would not. And mainly because the bosses and certain mobs on said maps would hit so hard, that only 4k+ hp and high armor would be able to survive 1-3 hits and have enough time to regenerate, whilst this build would be down in 1 hit.

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mvm199 escribió:

Imo, anyone who would try this build on hc is insane. But hey, thats just me.

It's funny how you keep trying to downplay evasion saying it can't handle high level maps, and that armor is the only way to play melee. This is not true. Evasion can handle high level maps when built properly. And evasion definitely has some advantages over armor (see below). You even post videos of an evasion build dying, trying to prove your point - yet there are many videos out there of high armor high hp characters getting one shot on maps they couldn't handle. So what is your point?

If you are playing Hardcore, or are level 85+ in any league - you will realize that dying and losing your character or XP is not funny at all. But maybe you think its a good idea to be running insane maps in Hardcore.

Here are some of the advantages of evasion:
- Avoids all damage (I would rather have to worry about the 1 heavy hit from a boss that gets through, rather than have to take every one of those hits). If you understand the mechanics of evasion/dodge/block - you will also see why you do not need an insane life pool with a build that is focused on avoiding damage
- Avoids status ailments (burn, freeze, shock), associated with such damage
- Avoids stuns associated with such damage
- Has a significantly higher chance to avoid critical hits - as critical hits are rolled twice against your evasion. If you had no evasion, every time a critical hit was generated - you would have to take it
- Substantially mitigates reflect as you can evade your own reflected damage. Again with no evasion - you will have to take your own reflect. As you can see from the physical reflect maps I run, reflect is essentially a non-issue

You are also forgetting that evasion is entropy based with a oounter, so if I get hit - I am guaranteed not to get hit by subsequent attacks in accordance with my evasion chance.
As such - I only need to worry about the rare hit that gets through, and I still have my dodge and block on top of that.

I was initially worried about my low health and used to play on 3K health, and was looking for ways to increase it even further. However, I realized I could lower it to ~2.6K health and still be fine in hard maps - while increasing my damage so that I can clear content faster.

I agree that more life would be ideal (this is true for all builds) - however I have gone as low as 2.5K health and can still do extremely hard maps. Again - if you understand the mechanics behind blind/evasion/dodge/block (and the reduction in accuracy from Enfeeble) - you will see why you do not need an insane life pool with this build.

It is also interesting how you mention endurance charges as part of what makes an armor build great - but you are forgetting that anyone can use endurance charges. This build can easily get up to 5 endurance charges for 20% mitigation against all physical damage; and I mention this as part of the build in the guide. Endurance charges are great because their mitigation scales excellently against all damage - unlike armor.

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Ceryneian escribió:

It's funny how you keep trying to downplay evasion saying it can't handle high level maps, and that armor is the only way to play melee. This is not true. Evasion can handle high level maps when built properly. And evasion definitely has some advantages over armor (see below). You even post videos of an evasion build dying, trying to prove your point - yet there are many videos out there of high armor high hp characters getting one shot on maps they couldn't handle. So what is your point?

I didnt say evasion cant handle high level maps - I said its prone to oneshot scenarios and having to skip certain very difficult map combinations. You didnt play any really difficult map combinations, and the only difficult one you did - vuln map, I would bet you would have been most likely oneshot had kole hit you. I didnt say armor is the only way to play melee, you do what you want at the end of the day. I am just comparing a typical armor stacking character to an typical evasion character. 'One shots' on a high armor high hp tank (at least one built well) dont happen, and thats the entire point I am making here. Or you might want to show me some actual proof?

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Ceryneian escribió:

If you are playing Hardcore, or are level 85+ in any league - you will realize that dying and losing your character or XP is not funny at all. But maybe you think its a good idea to be running insane maps in Hardcore.

My point is - should someone choose to run such maps, he will be at a significant advantage when stacking armor and hp instead of going eva / dodge / block with no armor and very low hp. Whether they choose to or not, is an entirely different issue and would be an escapist's argument.

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Ceryneian escribió:

- Avoids all damage (I would rather have to worry about the 1 heavy hit from a boss that gets through, rather than have to take every one of those hits). If you understand the mechanics of evasion/dodge/block - you will also see why you do not need an insane life pool with a build that is focused on avoiding damage

No you dont, IF you do the easy maps*

You run mods like chaos dmg / sec., monster res, EE, cannot be stunned, reflect (doesnt hurt your build at all), chilled / burned ground, pack size, chains 2 times, frenzy, warlords mark, etc ... all the time.

I liked the vuln / extra ele dmg carnage a lot, but i dont want to know what would have happened if he actually hit you. I saw a zombie and shield charger rare hit you for ~1400 each, with no damage mods on the map (THAT is some crazy shit), loathe with easy mods hitting you for within an inch of your life, etc

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Ceryneian escribió:

- Avoids status ailments (burn, freeze, shock), associated with such damage
- Avoids stuns associated with such damage
- Has a significantly higher chance to avoid critical hits - as critical hits are rolled twice against your evasion. If you had no evasion, every time a critical hit was generated - you would have to take it
- Substantially mitigates reflect as you can evade your own reflected damage. Again with no evasion - you will have to take your own reflect. As you can see from the physical reflect maps I run, reflect is essentially a non-issue

Status ailments, stuns? US and 4k hp makes them non existent. Chance to avoid critical hits means nothing, when a crit from a certain boss would definitely kill you. I would rather take the crit reduction nodes, they are amazing.

The only thing i dont like about evasion is the one shot scenarios it is prone to, I just can't stand that.

Reflect on armor builds is even easier to counter than evasion ^^ A non crit physical melee = relatively weak raw physical per hit to begin with, with stacked armor it doesnt even scratch your nuts. And I know block is not exclusive to either evasion or armor, but an armor character with block is superior to evasion / block because it has both mitigation and avoidance, unlike evasion which is just avoidance. (Inb4 'I avoid all damage' all over again - 'except oneshots') Block is superior to evasion with reflect in every way because reflect uses your own accuracy against you.

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Ceryneian escribió:

You are also forgetting that evasion is entropy based with a oounter, so if I get hit - I am guaranteed not to get hit by subsequent attacks in accordance with my evasion chance.
As such - I only need to worry about the rare hit that gets through, and I still have my dodge and block on top of that.

Not forgetting anything. In fact I am very well aware of it. Still doesn't discredit my oneshot scenario quip.

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Ceryneian escribió:

I was initially worried about my low health and used to play on 3K health, and was looking for ways to increase it even further. However, I realized I could lower it to ~2.6K health and still be fine in hard maps - while increasing my damage so that I can clear content faster.

I agree that more life would be ideal (this is true for all builds) - however I have gone as low as 2.5K health and can still do extremely hard maps.

Would not call those maps extremely hard

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Ceryneian escribió:

Again - if you understand the mechanics behind blind/evasion/dodge/block (and the reduction in accuracy from Enfeeble) - you will see why you do not need an insane life pool with this build.

If you had to try this on hc, you would need 3500hp minimum

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Ceryneian escribió:

It is also interesting how you mention endurance charges as part of what makes an armor build great - but you are forgetting that anyone can use endurance charges. This build can easily get up to 5 endurance charges for 20% mitigation against all physical damage; and I mention this as part of the build in the guide. Endurance charges are great because their mitigation scales excellently against all damage - unlike armor.

True, but 20% of big hits vs 2500 is still nothing. I feel safe with really high armor because it actually does very well vs those hits :)

PS Ondars guile --> Doubles chance to evade projectile attacks. Great against chaos projectiles and ice spears. --> Ice spears and the constructs are spells, ondars doesnt work on this. (The barbed serpents are 50/50 chaos / physical and is an attack, so yes it works with ondars.)

EDIT: Coming up with alternative gear change / passive tree suggestions (start as duelist) for up to 6k hp at level 100! Can be played on hardcore np, for those who dont mind a little dps loss (actually not a lot, 20% less accuracy, 25% less ias from tree, and only ~100% melee physical damage lost - remember these stack on exsiting ias and mpd from your str and 6 link skill bonuses) Will post it soon in detailed point form. (HINT: That shield has got to go! :P :P Not for you I mean - I know you're happy as you are, but for other players)

EDIT: This is the tree at level 100, with cruel bandits killed, start as duelist for more str and to avoid ranger start. I assumed a 30% shield, so 24% block chance. The block / stun recovery nodes are not needed, neither is herbalism, they are a total waste. We could argue back and forth again, but from experience, especially with vulnerability on, you need tons of stun recovery to make any difference, WIth lots of evasion and dodge you barely get hit so no stun issues. And with this hp pool and 30% avoid, you really dont need them.

Get rid of that shield for a rare with 30% block ideally, life resists and evasion. With this tree, you should have just enough int with SOL (151) for max enfeeble. Else, you will need it on a ring

Rings - ideally coral with life, belt - leather with life and str.

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgQABH4EsQW1BfkOSA-rES8RlhLhFfAa2xutG8gc3CP2JDwmlSepMHEwfDIBNYY2PTZ7OkI6WDqzPeJDMUd-SO5JO0lRSn1LeExgTipRR1M1U99VS1b6WNtaSFptW69eE2BLYSFh4mHrZU1noG1sbXtyfnK7dEF07XfXeK56U3rvfXV_K3_GhNmE74cZh3aH24hrjX2QCpVmmSubJp2qo4qnXKp_qrirxayvshm1SLZBtve307nNvJ-9gcOGxqLLQc3qz3rTftQZ1CPWitfL2j3dDd2o3vbjhOOf53TnkejW6xTuDu_w8Nn5Y_zF_ro=

mvm thanks for the constructive feedback.

It seems the only issue you have with the build is that it has less life than high armor/high hp builds. Which is understandable as those builds need high life - they cannot avoid any damage.

Can this build handle an insane level 77 Shrine map with 2x Piety, -max, extra damage/more projectiles mods, solo? Probably not. But I've seen high armor/high hp characters getting one shot on such maps. I don't even think it would be smart to try such insane maps if you are in Hardcore or are level 85+ in any league, as it is just not worth the risk.

I've been trying to explain why you do not need insane life with this build, as it is focused on avoiding damage.

Your alternative build suggestion is very useful and would help those looking for an even more defensive build. Thank you for taking the time to post it. I may test it for the HC section.

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jsn006 escribió:

PS Ondars guile --> Doubles chance to evade projectile attacks. Great against chaos projectiles and ice spears. --> Ice spears and the constructs are spells, ondars doesnt work on this. (The barbed serpents are 50/50 chaos / physical and is an attack, so yes it works with ondars.)

Chaos projectile attacks and ice arrows are what I should have said. It works great against Piety and such, making you pretty much immune to those ranged attacks =).

Thanks for the very detailed build guide, this looks like it will be really fun. I put together this dualist variant, I've leveled 3 rangers in a row and need a change haha. Here it is, could you let me know what you think?

Dualist Variant

Also, I found these two axes, heavier hitter vs fast with some elemental, which do you think would be preferable?

Added new video! Level 76 Precinct map with Vulnerability and 2x Stormflay. Goat men map - so a lot of high physical and high spell damage, but there were no problems encountered on the map. I took no damage from the 2 Lady Stormflay bosses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7u40Xa-k5I

I am testing the build without Dodge. I ran this map with 7 points removed from around Acrobatics and Phase Acrobatics to test - I put those points all into life nodes, resulting in about 3.1K health and about 900 energy shield.

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CptNinjetty escribió:

Ever consider a claw for the extra 15 life per hit?

Hi, I have not used Claws with this build, but the life gain/life leech should work very well given the high attack speed - and will give you great health recovery. It may not be the ideal weapon for the build since focus of defense is to avoid taking damage, so the majority of the time you are at full life anyway.

I think the end game claws become % life leech, while the early game claws are life gain on hit. The Bloodseeker is an end game claw that gives you instant life leech, however its damage is low for end-game.

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dessloc escribió:

Thanks for the very detailed build guide, this looks like it will be really fun. I put together this dualist variant, I've leveled 3 rangers in a row and need a change haha. Here it is, could you let me know what you think?

Dualist Variant

Also, I found these two axes, heavier hitter vs fast with some elemental, which do you think would be preferable?

Spoiler

Hi, I think the build looks good and is very similar to mine. It should work very well. You may want to remove some points from the top Shadow shield nodes and put those in the shield nodes by the Ranger/Duelist. Also - the Void Barrier node by the Shadow is very good, however it takes a lot of points to get there - if you are using Rathpith Globe for your spell block - then I think it is fine as you benefit from evasion and energy shield from those nodes, if not - I would put those points into life nodes. I also highly recommend the Heart of Oak node by the Ranger - gives life regen, increased life, and 30% chance to avoid stuns.

Those are great axes. I would go with the first one since it has higher attack speed (helps your life gain on hit/life leech) and has a good amount of accuracy too.

Quick Update on Build:
- I am currently testing the Rathpith Globe shield (for max regular block + max spell block) instead of Atziri's Mirror shield + Rainbowstrides. Rathpith requires a lot of int - so I am using the cute Sin Trek boots and a ring with some int.
- Problem is that it is very hard to balance resistances (Atziri's + Rainbowstrides were giving a large amount of res. to all three: cold, fire, and light.) so I would recommend staying with the original build unless you can spend currency to help solve for res/int/life
- AOE DPS has slightly dropped as I cannot use Meginord's belt (need to use a new belt and new ring to help balance resistances and Int. requirements). AOE DPS unbuffed is still very high - 13K, and with Hatred + Haste - 17K
- I am also testing the build without Dodge (as it may be unnecessary given Blind/Eva/Max Block + Enfeeble). I have taken the 7 points from around the Acro cluster and put them all into life
- I currently have ~3.1K health and ~900 ES

Latest vid with new test build: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7u40Xa-k5I

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Ceryneian escribió:

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dessloc escribió:

Thanks for the very detailed build guide, this looks like it will be really fun. I put together this dualist variant, I've leveled 3 rangers in a row and need a change haha. Here it is, could you let me know what you think?

Dualist Variant

Also, I found these two axes, heavier hitter vs fast with some elemental, which do you think would be preferable?

Spoiler

Hi, I think the build looks good and is very similar to mine. It should work very well. You may want to remove some points from the top Shadow shield nodes and put those in the shield nodes by the Ranger/Duelist. Also - the Void Barrier node by the Shadow is very good, however it takes a lot of points to get there - if you are using Rathpith Globe for your spell block - then I think it is fine as you benefit from evasion and energy shield from those nodes, if not - I would put those points into life nodes. I also highly recommend the Heart of Oak node by the Ranger - gives life regen, increased life, and 30% chance to avoid stuns.

Those are great axes. I would go with the first one since it has higher attack speed (helps your life gain on hit/life leech) and has a good amount of accuracy too.

Thanks for the feedback. I was planning to use Rathpith, that was my thinking with Void Barrier (and Shield Mastery due to its proximity to VB). If I went with the curse reflect shield, I'd definitely grab the 6 2% shield block nodes that I have directly in my path instead of VB. Also, as kind of a wild card idea, what do you think about grabbing the 3 life nodes right below Mental Acuity in the shadow start + Mental Acuity + Freeze? With the high APS of this build that 5% chance to freeze looks like it could have some good defensive synergy with this build.