Empower VS minion damage for zombies.

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gr00grams escribió:

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fph escribió:

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gr00grams escribió:

Mon'tregul's Grasp is actually worse than Midnight Bargain or Queens Decree for a pure summoner.

That is 1 spectre, 5 zombies and 2 skeletons lost for it's gains.

Even counting the zombies' gains, that's 5 less zombies.
MMon'tregul's Grasp is only good for a character that uses zombies exclusively, or isn't a 'full summoner'.

10 zombies is higher dps than 5, even with it's gains.
This is 20% less chance to blind with skeletons.
This is the loss of one Undying Evangelist or Tentacle miscreation spectre.
My zombies are already pretty much capped on resistances with their innate, and purity of the elements. Survival is fine for them, wih 4600 hp (lvl 18) and vitality + rejuv totem.

If you used it in an off-hand, it would still be better to have 2 midngight bargains (provided you have the hp) or the lowly matua tupana shield if you are heavily into auras.

It literally has no advantages to either midnight bargain, or the cheap-o Queens Decree.
I find it interesting so many summoners tout this item. Mon'tregul's Grasp is not the ideal item. It's price is ridiculous compared to the midnight bargain, which is great ;)

You do know that you can swap it out aFter you summon the first ones And get 4 super-zombIes and 4/5 normaL ones, right?

I do now, but regardless I don't see it as near worth it's value, spoken as a pure-summoner player.

Don't get me wrong, it's good, but it's price is absurd for it's actual benefits.
If you can obtain the Midnight, which truthfully is just as rare, it's worth is 10x that of Monty, same for the Queen. # of summons > all for pure summoner.

That's like saying, pay 15+ exalts for an extra 500hp (+% of gem), 90% damage for 4 zombies.
Who in their right mind would pay that? Does it at least look like it's picture? the Midnight doesn't, what a let down that was.

Just a comparison note is all.

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Warzone129 escribió:

sign....ummm no.

Montregruls is a 100% must for every summoner. It is held in your off weapon pair so you can snapshot 5 montegrul zombies then switch to ur main weapon which as a CI summoner should be

and then you summon your other 5 normal zombies.

Queens is trash. Midnight bargain is shit because no CI and if ur hp summoner (lol) takes a third of ur life.....trash again.

As far a the 4 link for your zombies empower-life-zombie-(insert what u want here for dmg).
Empower at lvl 2 takes your 20/20 zombies up by 1100 hp. If ur running vit and puritys which u should be that's massive survivability for end game. And if u manage to lvl empower to lvl 3 its basically a must for zombies considering how much hp they get.

This advice is ofcourse if your a serious summoner wanting to run end game maps. If your a "merciless piety farming summoner" then do w/e it doesn't matter.

# of summons > all.

I don't run CI. There's no need. I use the cloak of defiance with my mana regen. That's 40% damage to mana, which is regenerating at near 300 mana per second. Add in vitality/totem with hp regenerating at 225/hp sec. There is absolutely no need to fear shield bypassing attacks, especially if it lowers my hp to 1, because then I'd lose an aura as well. Not optimal at all.

I agree on empower.

I run 'end game' maps easily. Heck, I do them with 400 active hp after buffs, and no CI. Does that blow your mind?

You swap to that item for ES I take it? You actually need ES? Why not just out-regen any paltry damage that bypasses shields, and summon more minions?

Monty is just over-valued is all. My Zombies almost never, ever, ever die with only 4600 hp, vitality + rejuv totem. They aren't even level 20 yet. Only 18.

Use blind on your skeles, with 14 active skeles, because of Midnight, that's a 168% chance of blind. Blind is 75% chance to miss. Add in enfeeble/chains, and yeah. My skeles aren't even being taken out.

My totem with every aura passive (minus another 18% i get in 2 levels) brings hp regen to over 200/sec. Add in vitality, and they just wreck. My totem is also only lvl 16... 225hp/sec at 16.

With every aura passive also, an aura like purity of the elements caps their resistances, so Monty literally loses every advantage except +500 hp, +90% dmg for 4/5 zombies, and the on-kill MI effect. IS that worth 15+ exalt? Not a chance.

Auras I use in full are: vitality/haste/discipline/clarity/purity of elements.

All I do in 'end game' maps is cast enfeeble and temporal chains + totem.

Like, yes, Monty is good. It is not better than any item that adds # of summons.
It is nowhere NEAR 15+ exalt or whatever ridiculous price it is associated with.

EDIT* Also, you're aware you can get 4 evangelists as spectres, and stand inside their bubble right? That omits almost every attack against you. CI is a waste for summoner. No attack outside of the bubble deal damage. +increased duration GG.

I don't even know where to start.....

# of minions is not the best thing for pure sumoners. The quality of them is more important.
I run evangeists im aware what they do.

Im wondering what high end maps u do solo that u think # of minions is best when they get one shot by most aoe bosess.

And u don't run purity of fire light ? to give them more max resits?

And CI is not a waste for a summoner just because u can stand in evangelist bubble that not going to save you from a lot of things.

You can still run 5 auras a s summoner with CI im doing it atm inc disc and 2 purities.

And as far your zombies never ever dying with 4k hp doubt it ALOT. if ur running 78 maps a 4 k zombie with out purity of fire and light for max resits will get one shot regardless of how much hp regen they have. Hell I have them on 9.5 k hp and run both fire and light purity and i stand them in consecrated ground using gifts from above and they still die to 78 bosses and crematorium boss.

I specter and 1 zombie is not worth 5k ES.
That weapon im using plus CI is 5k less ES with midnight bargain and no ci.

Lvl 78 evangelists gemed correctly 1 shot everything white in 78 maps so no need for 4 of them 3 is plenty.

Again this is a question on what u call end game content. If 71 maps are end game ye then go ahead and resere 30% of ur hp with trash bargain and get no CI.

4k hp zombies wont ever survive a crematorium or a 77 piety or 78 dom.

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Warzone129 escribió:

I don't even know where to start.....

# of minions is not the best thing for pure sumoners. The quality of them is more important.
I run evangeists im aware what they do.

Im wondering what high end maps u do solo that u think # of minions is best when they get one shot by most aoe bosess.

And u don't run purity of fire light ? to give them more max resits?

And CI is not a waste for a summoner just because u can stand in evangelist bubble that not going to save you from a lot of things.

You can still run 5 auras a s summoner with CI im doing it atm inc disc and 2 purities.

And as far your zombies never ever dying with 4k hp doubt it ALOT. if ur running 78 maps a 4 k zombie with out purity of fire and light for max resits will get one shot regardless of how much hp regen they have. Hell I have them on 9.5 k hp and run both fire and light purity and i stand them in consecrated ground using gifts from above and they still die to 78 bosses and crematorium boss.

I specter and 1 zombie is not worth 5k ES.
That weapon im using plus CI is 5k less ES with midnight bargain and no ci.

Lvl 78 evangelists gemed correctly 1 shot everything white in 78 maps so no need for 4 of them 3 is plenty.

Again this is a question on what u call end game content. If 71 maps are end game ye then go ahead and resere 30% of ur hp with trash bargain and get no CI.

4k hp zombies wont ever survive a crematorium or a 77 piety or 78 dom.

Going to do this bullet style, as I'm trying to be quick:

- I have 300 mana regen per second. I can literally hold right mouse down, summoning pets and never run out of mana. Quality while generally important, is irrelevant. I am totally fine with them being one shot on bosses. I can hold the trigger down summoning. It doesn't matter. Again, blind support on skeles. 14x12% is a guaranteed blind. This makes almost all melee PvE irrelevant.

- They already have max resists. Here is a quote from the wiki:
"As of Version 0.11.1, a level 20 zombie starts with 32% fire and lightning resistance, 64% cold resistance and 0% chaos resistance regardless of the difficulty."

My purity, with passives grants +48% resistance (currently, missing one passive) to each of the three, capping them. I cap them with the one aura and their inherit resists already. 32+48 = 80. All I would gain from the 2 auras you list would be the 5% over-cap, which is ok, but pales to things like haste, giving them 40% (aura buffs. 40%+ AS!) AS and 20% more movement. (note, I am still missing one passive, Inner Force to be taken next level up, granting another 15% to all buffs, so all aura effects including rejuvination totem as it is classified as an aura will go up massively). Those two auras you run offer me nothing I don't already have in one, aside 5% max res. That's not optimal, 5% max res will not save them anymore from big aoe nukes, which are the only threat. It just won't.

Beyond that, I don't care if they die to big aoe bosses. I can summon them indefinitely. However, I use enfeeble/temporal chains and skeletons with blind. Those 3 things omit almost all threat aside the big aoe nukes, and in those times when they are nuked, I can just hold the RMB down to summon non-stop. My mana regen with clarity literally is instant full. It makes absolutely no difference, and in many cases, it's optimal with MI. It is a constant stream of exploding dps. Aside big aoe nuke bosses, no they aren't being wiped out to near anything.

For CI, I have 40% damage applied to my mana first. My mana is regenerating currently at 285/sec, while hp is at 225hp/sec. Anything passing through their bubbles is likely a dot, and irrelevant. I out-regen them. With +duration on evangelists, their bubble has a 100% up-time. You stay back far enough, and the evangelists just sit there, with their bubbles up. For big nuke bosses like you mention, I stand so far back the bosses are off the screen for the most. I 'fight' bosses without even seeing them on screen. Sit back in the bubbles, hold down right mouse summoning skeles non-stop. An effective, safe method but not the fastest. The only thing that penetrates this is bleeding. I have flasks to remove it.

I am built for 'tricks', not outright face-rolling is the difference. Like even just blind. Blind makes such a massive difference on it's own it's insane for 90% of the game. Pretty much everything aside the aoe nukes can be omitted with this one support on 14 skeletons, and they also have a +40%+ AS from haste and the like.

We'll have to agree to disagree.
Again, I don't think Monty is bad, it IS good, but it's nowhere near as good as made out. If asked which I'd take for free, it would be the Midnight every time. Without a thought even. I would also never pay the asking price of 15+ ex. It's not worth near that. Again, it's good, but not 15+ ex good.

i wanna make a CI cyclone cast on crit build with 2 Ephemeral Edge summoner. maybe Ungil's Gauche offhand. i know its possible and i would be happy with 50-70% crit. with zombies and skellie. there would be nothin that could stop it. cast on stun skelli.

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gr00grams escribió:

We'll have to agree to disagree.
Again, I don't think Monty is bad, it IS good, but it's nowhere near as good as made out. If asked which I'd take for free, it would be the Midnight every time. Without a thought even. I would also never pay the asking price of 15+ ex. It's not worth near that. Again, it's good, but not 15+ ex good.

well, i didnt knew of 15+ exalts, i payd 2 ex for mine (divined it later got almost perfect rolls) it's my favorite summoner item, i am pretty sure i would only run monty zombies if they fix item snapshot, even still i consider it a luxury item.

well and you talk about # of minions for pure summoners. well i only run 6 zombies and 2 specters (no skellies) and i still consider myself a pure summoner though, i traded dps for survivability, running on 5k life with 11k armor maxed resists (20 positve chaos), and tbh for the content i do solo, summoning skelies would be more of an anoyance than help (not that i have mane to cast them, as i only have 75 mana after auras) and for party on high lvl maps i use evangelists instead of BM, and tbh on 6 man maps having 10+ skellies runing around with 5 dudes using flahy skills and stuff...

but on another note, isn't this what this game is about with it'sskill tree? we're both summoners but we dont have the same skill tree

I play lowlife and for now i have to rely on snapshoting and BM.

Can you both post your passive tree and the stuff you use (and your lv please)

So far lv 71 2k es and 190 hp left i run disciplie hatred vitality and purity. If i dont use minion life et minion ane totem eleental they tene to die very often... i was using evangelist but they dies pretty oftenand are too low damage compared to Bm (lv 16 all gems currently).

I was using arc+ blind+knocback in moonsorrow..but to no avail gain... i switched to ephemeral edge / and a rare scepter to gain more mana regen (using now lv 6 arctic armor) my best combo so far is arc+chain+curse on hit+enfeeble/flammability

Usually i just run by the ennemy and my BM take care of the... so far up to lv 68 map (beginning of the end game content)

I have done a lv 67 ir 68 or maybe only 66 with a green archer.... who badly one shoted all my skellies a d 2 shoted my zombies and specter with his fast green rain of arrows. .

I still have to beat the orchard boss with his "lovely " more than 4k fireball that one shots everythings...

montregul's jump in price is quite interesting. I remember when nearly a top roll one on standard was like 4-5 ex

so yeah, if we're talking 15 exalts for grasp, its not worth it. but if you have currency to spare its good because it doesnt give you any disadvantage whatsoever

now what I really disagree with is # of summoners > everything.

spectre-wise, going beyond 3 spectres is just downright counterproductive to survivability, imo.

midnights bargain is garbage (3rd of life gone lolwhut), and if use queens decree you lose shield with tons of defensive options or even aegis that easily trump the +1spectre

for zombies, the breakpoint is imo around 6 zombies.
going 3-> 4 zombie gives you 1/3 more damage and 'on hit evasion (via meatshield)' :)
4->5 gives you 1/4 more damage and on hit evasion
5->6 gives you 1/5 more damage and on hit evasion
6->7 gives you 1/6 more damage and on hit evasion
...
8->9 gives you 1/8 more damage and on hit evasion

returns get more and more diminishing there. in fact, I dont even take those +zombie nodes beyond 6 zombies and would rather put them into something else

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lk_77lk escribió:

I play lowlife and for now i have to rely on snapshoting and BM.

Can you both post your passive tree and the stuff you use (and your lv please)

So far lv 71 2k es and 190 hp left i run disciplie hatred vitality and purity. If i dont use minion life et minion ane totem eleental they tene to die very often... i was using evangelist but they dies pretty oftenand are too low damage compared to Bm (lv 16 all gems currently).

not sure if you were talking to me but, this is my gear

my skill tree:
Passive skill tree build

lvl 87 atm 5.1k life 11k armor
i'm folowing matt's the spectral gods guide (build changed to my linking)

main problem with your minions is the gem level, high level gem increase minion survivabiliy alot

I play low life and I don't use snapshotting ( except with Montregul )
Spectre on 4L ( undying ) and Zombie in 6L

Almost 8k ES and a clear speed really awesome with 6 auras. My best char/build so far.
On top of that I have 280/120 MF.

the way I sees it , minion life doesn't give enough life to make face tanking bosses plausible

but empower tends to be prohibitively expensive

i would be interested to see some one make a summoner build where the individual items AND gems , cost less than an exalted orb each

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Saltychipmunk escribió:

the way I sees it , minion life doesn't give enough life to make face tanking bosses plausible

but empower tends to be prohibitively expensive

i would be interested to see some one make a summoner build where the individual items AND gems , cost less than an exalted orb each

if you play a lot of maps, gems are free. Ive leveled a few gems to 20/20 from scratch. and leveled empower to about 1/7th of lvl 3... just takes time.

summoner is by far the least expensive build to gear if you dont go for montregul's. all you need is tabula rasa, bones of ullr and high level gems and you can tackle tough maps that you would need a lot of currency to gear up for, for other builds