👻3.20👻 Kay's Summoner💥SRS Bomber💀Poison SRS💀Melee SRS🕷️Spiders💀Skeleton Mages

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kayella escribió:

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Deadandlivin escribió:

If you compare my build running Guardian or Necro(WIthout Unnatural Strength) my Necro version still does 80 million(~20%) more dps than the Guardian version. Honestly, Guardian still doesn't even come close

If you untick charges it drops to 192M vs 162M... still good number, but difference is not so big. and most people never have a build like yours (mageblood, 9link helmet, two +2/DD/ias wands).

The helmet cost 1 mir + fee, right?
https://www.pathofexile.com/trade/search/Sentinel/zvWw3XqI4

I was just thinking if you spend 2 mir on DO build, it would probably be even better than minions.. :P

Overall, mostly the 3.19 nerfs hurt the casual and mid level players, so for them Guardian vs Necro is actually pretty close.

Don't forget movement speed from Guardian. It's 30% ms more than Necro. Almost all minions are melee, so the movement speed will be important. Just remember how terrible league start feels before you get good boots :P


Edit: you use explosion AG, right? Are there any corpses left behind?

Edit 2: So my main point is Guardian is probably better for league start/casual/mid level players. If you have lots of time and good at crafting, then maybe Necro is better.

Yeah that's true, I always minmax my builds :P
But the point is just that I think people are overhyping Guardians for summoners. I just don't see why you would pick them.
It should be less dmg, less survival(Assuming you want Bone Offering) and less minion survival.

What I DO think though, is that Scion, Elementalist and Occultist may replace Necromancers since they actually have quirky niches.

And yeah, doing ~150ish million dps with mirrors worth of gear kinda is fine. What I'm scared about though is league start numbers. Just the removal of Charges alone specifically nerfs my builds by ~50-70% in dmg as you saw(Assuming I won't use Gorillas any longer). Imagine league starting with ~3 million dps and now having it dropped to ~1.4 million or something like that. Then slap the 20% global minion nerf on top of that and another ~10% dmg reduction due to not having Unnatural Strength. Suddenly we're down to 0.9 million dps. I mean, still playable but massive FeelsBad vibes.

Meanwhile other actual meta league starters will continue to casually get 5 million dps in a tabula, farming up Cold Iron Points/Skin of the Lords et.c. during the first day, reach ~10-15 million dps and farm Uber bosses the first week.

These nerfs just feel too targeted imo. These dmg nerfs feel like 3.15 level of nerfs, but specifically for minions. Atleast I was more okay with 3.15 but then we all suffered together due to the support nerfs. Now however, the incentive to play minions is just... not there.

But I guess this is part of GGGs overarching goal to slow down the game for PoE2 or something. The reason why melee never gets buffed probably is because that's the goal power they want builds to be at and will nerf each archetype one by one until everyone's there, like a race to the bottom.

Honestly though, dmg nerfs are fine. Game will still be playable, just slower and more sluggish when fighting bosses/rares. Clear and trash monsters will still be more than fine. But damn, a 40% life reduction on my Zombies/Golems/Spectres et.c. when I reach maps? I think that actually might make permanent minions unplayable. How much HP will SLave Drivers have in maps now? Like 8k?

Animate Guardian for sure explode alot of corpses removing them. But there' still plenty of corpses left. Mainly cause the explode mod on the chest only has a 30% chance to procc which should leave enough corpses for Plaguebringer to have a permanent uptime. Assuming only 30% of the corpses get consumed by the explodey mods ~70% should be left. In my case specifically, there's more than 30% being exploded though since I run Legacy of Fury as boots on my AG aswell, but it only proccs on scorched monsters around him.
Whenever I play there's always plenty of monster corpses left.

For my build specifically though, it's the shattering from Cold converting that may be the biggest problem when I think about it. Might have to playtest my build to see if Plaguebringer actually is useable since shattering frozen corpses aswell as exploding them might be a big problem.

Still not sure whether Guardian will be better for league start. 30% minion movementspeed is nice for sure. But honestly, I think Scion might be the true ascendency replacing necromancer. Scion still gets the best parts of Necromancers(Mistress of Sacrifice) and you're still able to pick Guardian for Onslaught et.c. or maybe even Deadeye for Tailwind. The extra skillpoints from Scion is really strong too.

Have you looked at your league starters and changed them to Guardian or other ascendencies to see how the numbers look yet?

EDIT: The helm only cost a mirror this league since Ghazzy wasn't charging a mirror fee for the helm this time.
I didn't mirror it though, I just bought the helm for 400 ex off of trade from someone who was rerolling from his mage skelly league starter. Still an insane price, but definitely the right move considering mirrors had an insane price of like 650 ex or something.

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kayella escribió:

Edit 2: So my main point is Guardian is probably better for league start/casual/mid level players.

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Deadandlivin escribió:

Still not sure whether Guardian will be better for league start.

Nah, it really depends on build.

If we are talking about melee builds:

Chaos conversion, physical/poison, cold conversion, fire convertion - necro is definitely better.

Lightning conversion*, physical/impale - actually, guardian.

I'm not sure about ranged/caster minions besides herald of agony, which was dominant on guardian before 3.19, but next league necro is the best for it.

To Kay: Generic minion builds are gone in 3.19. Have to go niche.

Deadandlivin: I have a pob, specifically, dor prototype crit lightning conversion AW, and guardian is a stronger than necro w/o +2 and charges there. Simply bc of permanent onslaught and intimidate, since it can run a better gem than aw melee phys. {Edit: 10% less res on guardian matter too). 123m guardian vs 103m necro.

*The thing here is, that w/o dor prototype, necromancer with mastermind of discord would be 14% stronger than guardian with augury of penitence.

While, w/o MoD and AoP, dps is almost the same - guardian does just ~3% more, again bc of intimidate.

However, if i had, for example, second minion which can intimidate, necro would be a bit (same 3%) stronger.

In this case for this specific build (lightning conversion crit animate weapon) i'd definitely go for guardian bc of better scaling with higher budget and a better performance on low budget.

Also, faster minions of guardian feel better if dps numbers are similar to necro.

On the other hand, if i'd run, for example, cold or, especially, chaos conversion AW, i would never thought about going guardian.

I agree with both of you, but my point is that necro vs guardian is really depends on the build.

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monik390 escribió:

Nah, it really depends on build.

To Kay: Generic minion builds are gone in 3.19. Have to go niche.

I guess my thinking of starter is day 1 SSF starting and then specialise later. Also I'm thinking of new players who don't have scion yet! So that's why I like Guardian now. You can get +20% res, onslaught, 10% more damage in Act 3/4. Then upgrade to other builds that match Guardian's ascendancy. SRS guardian will be pretty good to play.

For some specialist minions, you need to pick the witch. Definitely for golems, you play Elementalist now. Occultist for spiders. I'm also thinking Necro might be ok for MI builds... not sure about this yet.

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Deadandlivin escribió:

Still not sure whether Guardian will be better for league start. 30% minion movementspeed is nice for sure. But honestly, I think Scion might be the true ascendency replacing necromancer. Scion still gets the best parts of Necromancers(Mistress of Sacrifice) and you're still able to pick Guardian for Onslaught et.c. or maybe even Deadeye for Tailwind. The extra skillpoints from Scion is really strong too.

Is Mistress really the best? It's possible to block cap without bone offering + mistress. So, bone offering is not as important and I think GGG is pushing us to temporary minions (buffed SRS/phantasms/HoP). Blessed Rebirth will take care of them I think.

Too many things to think about!!

Anyway I just levelled a guardian to 95 and scion to 92. After patch notes I can try to make equivalent build between necro/guardian/scion and see which is better.

Any chance at using SRS with Summon Reaper?

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Vaildez escribió:

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25% damage reduction is the main nerf.

I don't even think 25 is that bad... The build will still be viable but won't likely be anywhere near the meta.

My biggest issue is Spectres... They haven't been very good for awhile and they keep getting less and less viable with each change.

25% straight nerf
50% damage bonus from the gem itself is gone
30% damage nerf for minions across the board
Spectre charges for frenzy/power charges nerfed into oblivion.
No more +2 on ascendancy
No more +3 helmet

Mages are trash tier.

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Tainted_Turkey escribió:

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Vaildez escribió:

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25% damage reduction is the main nerf.

I don't even think 25 is that bad... The build will still be viable but won't likely be anywhere near the meta.

My biggest issue is Spectres... They haven't been very good for awhile and they keep getting less and less viable with each change.

25% straight nerf
50% damage bonus from the gem itself is gone
30% damage nerf for minions across the board
Spectre charges for frenzy/power charges nerfed into oblivion.
No more +2 on ascendancy
No more +3 helmet

Mages are trash tier.

50% added damage... That's not how we are scaling Mages anyhow. Assuming there are more ways to get minion level from other gear I don't think this nerf kills the build. The +3 to helment only really impacts the mirror tier helmet that slots skeletons. I cleared all content in Archnemsis fine without the helm.

Well "now" you can get +2 to all minions on the helmet and douple corrupt a body armor with +2 to socketed minions and +2 to socketed duration gems.

For a nice +6 to skeles on that bodyarmor.

Or you could even douple corrupt that super helmet with those same implicits.

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50% added damage... That's not how we are scaling Mages anyhow. Assuming there are more ways to get minion level from other gear I don't think this nerf kills the build. The +3 to helment only really impacts the mirror tier helmet that slots skeletons. I cleared all content in Archnemsis fine without the helm.

Skelly mages are getting a:
- 20% dmg nerf from blanket nerf to all minions
- 25% dmg nerf to skelly mages directly
- 20% dmg nerf from Unnatural Strength nerf (Nullified if you used skellys 6-linked in chest and not a +3 15 ex minion helm)
- 10% dmg nerf due to nerf to 7-link minion helms as levels got reduced from 3 to 2.
- ~50% dmg nerf with the removal of Frenzy and Power Charges (Assuming 2 of each charge cause Mages are temporary minions and most likely won't have 3/3 charges)

If you had a modestly geared Skelly mage build with 7-link helm, +2 wand, Ashes et.c. you most likely had ~25 million dps.

If we apply all these nerfs to this ~100 ex build the results would be:
25 * 0.8 * 0.75 * 0.8 * 0.9 * 0.5 = 5.4 million dps.

So you would've gone from ~25 million dps down to 5.4 million.
5.4/25 = 0.216 -> 1 - 0.216 = 0.784 -> 78.4%

This means Mage builds using x2 Power/Frenzy monkeys and a +3 minion helm would've lost 78.4% of their damage comparing these two leagues. I didn't calculate the change on Brittle from 5% base crit to 2% base crit either, so the dps nerf would've been even larger for many mage builds utilizing Brittle eldritch mods on their boots.

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kayella escribió:

I guess my thinking of starter is day 1 SSF starting and then specialise later. Also I'm thinking of new players who don't have scion yet! So that's why I like Guardian now. You can get +20% res, onslaught, 10% more damage in Act 3/4.

For some specialist minions, you need to pick the witch. Definitely for golems, you play Elementalist now. Occultist for spiders.

After I played around some Animate Weapon starters in pob, I found some interesting stuff.

Scenario:

- up to lvl 72.
- naked (besides +50% increased minion damage crafted with essence of fear, and triad grip for lightning (and chaos to get a clear understanding on how much necro would be better on a higher investment)).
- auras/curses/support skills matched properly.
- Merc lab (6 points).

Approach: Raw numbers compared, qol not counted.

Result:

Physical/impale: guardian is stronger.

Physical/poison: necromancer is stronger.

Lightning conversion: guardian is stronger.

At this point I have to say 2 things:

1. Both elementalist and ascendant in this scenario are weaker than either guardian or necromancer.

2. If necromancer get intimidate somewhere, and forbidden jewels to access elementalist/occultist nodes, she becomes:

a) barely stronger at physical/impale,
b) stronger than guardian at elemental convertion, and
c) absolutely crushes guardian at physical/poison or full chaos convertion.

Note: take those results with a grain of salt, since it's almost naked simulation.
Finished builds can show drastic difference. In damage, tankiness or qol.

Conclusion:

1. Physical/poison necro is the strongest AW starter in SSF scenario out of 6. In mid budget range, it's also the strongest.

2. Lightning guardian is the second strongest out of 6, if not counting triad grip. In mid budget range, necro is stronger.

3. Physical/impale, although it doesn't shine compared to ^^ above, it's probably the easiest to build, most comfortable to play, and the cheapest in mid-budget range. Either necro or guardian will do.

Outside of physical/poison, day 1 guardian is indeed better. Esp bc of Radiant Crusade qol, exactly like you said.

Later, most summoner builds would be stronger on necromancer tho. It's not like there are many exceptions from that.

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monik390 escribió:

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kayella escribió:

I guess my thinking of starter is day 1 SSF starting and then specialise later. Also I'm thinking of new players who don't have scion yet! So that's why I like Guardian now. You can get +20% res, onslaught, 10% more damage in Act 3/4.

For some specialist minions, you need to pick the witch. Definitely for golems, you play Elementalist now. Occultist for spiders.

After I played around some Animate Weapon starters in pob, I found some interesting stuff.

Scenario:

- up to lvl 72.
- naked (besides +50% increased minion damage crafted with essence of fear, and triad grip for lightning (and chaos to get a clear understanding on how much necro would be better on a higher investment)).
- auras/curses/support skills matched properly.
- Merc lab (6 points).

Approach: Raw numbers compared, qol not counted.

Result:

Physical/impale: guardian is stronger.

Physical/poison: necromancer is stronger.

Lightning conversion: guardian is stronger.

At this point I have to say 2 things:

1. Both elementalist and ascendant in this scenario are weaker than either guardian or necromancer.

2. If necromancer get intimidate somewhere, and forbidden jewels to access elementalist/occultist nodes, she becomes:

a) barely stronger at physical/impale,
b) stronger than guardian at elemental convertion, and
c) absolutely crushes guardian at physical/poison or full chaos convertion.

Note: take those results with a grain of salt, since it's almost naked simulation.
Finished builds can show drastic difference. In damage, tankiness or qol.

Conclusion:

1. Physical/poison necro is the strongest AW starter in SSF scenario out of 6. In mid budget range, it's also the strongest.

2. Lightning guardian is the second strongest out of 6, if not counting triad grip. In mid budget range, necro is stronger.

3. Physical/impale, although it doesn't shine compared to ^^ above, it's probably the easiest to build, most comfortable to play, and the cheapest in mid-budget range. Either necro or guardian will do.

Outside of physical/poison, day 1 guardian is indeed better. Esp bc of Radiant Crusade qol, exactly like you said.

Later, most summoner builds would be stronger on necromancer tho. It's not like there are many exceptions from that.

Got any PoBs I could tinker with? :)