[outdated] Caustic Arrow Solo Map MFer (20/300+)

Just looking over the tree and gems for Scion.

It looks to me - unless my math is off - like level 20 Pierce will be better than Empower 3 as a support gem.

Level 20 Pierce gives 29% more damage (will actually give 30% more in a +1/+2 bow).
Level 3 Empower boosts a level 21 CA in a +1/+2 bow from 861.1 to 1073.7 = 25% more damage
Level 4 Empower boosts a level 21 CA in a +1/+2 bow from 861.1 to 1198 = 39% more damage

Since it takes so long to get Empower 4, it looks better to go with Pierce which would allow us to respec out of the 3 nodes in the Piercing Shots wheel.

Also Pierce has a mana multiplier of 1.1 versus 1.25 for Empower making it less mana intensive.

Much later in the league when/if you get Empower 4 you could recolor your bow and respec into Piercing shots; I've never managed to acquire a level 4 Empower in a challenge league.
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The above has likely been covered elsewhere and may be too much detail to include in the front portion of this guide. But maybe consider recommending Pierce with a mention that level 4 Empower will be better if you can get it.

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hankinsohl escribió:

Just looking over the tree and gems for Scion.

It looks to me - unless my math is off - like level 20 Pierce will be better than Empower 3 as a support gem.

Level 20 Pierce gives 29% more damage (will actually give 30% more in a +1/+2 bow).
Level 3 Empower boosts a level 21 CA in a +1/+2 bow from 861.1 to 1073.7 = 25% more damage
Level 4 Empower boosts a level 21 CA in a +1/+2 bow from 861.1 to 1198 = 39% more damage

Since it takes so long to get Empower 4, it looks better to go with Pierce which would allow us to respec out of the 3 nodes in the Piercing Shots wheel.

Also Pierce has a mana multiplier of 1.1 versus 1.25 for Empower making it less mana intensive.

Much later in the league when/if you get Empower 4 you could recolor your bow and spec back into Piercing shots.
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The above has likely been covered elsewhere and may be too much detail to include in the front portion of this guide. But maybe consider recommending Pierce with a mention that level 4 Empower will be better if you can get it.

You are forgetting all the extra multipliers.

I will outline all my math in the spoilers below, with the ultimate dps calculated outside. For these calculations, all gems are 20q, we are not including jewels, and we are using a drillneck, so we count the 10% pierce from that when we add the pierce from the tree.

With Pierce and no Empower
Caustic Arrow DPS: 13,996.32

MATH BELOW



With Empower, no Pierce
Caustic Arrow DPS: 19,163.20

MATH BELOW


The difference between Empower and Pierce ends up being about 5k, which makes a huge difference. This difference is a little less with a level 3 Empower, but still very noticeable.

EDIT: I just reread the Drillneck page, and the maximum damage gained from it is 100% increased, due to pierce capping at 100%. This means that with 90% from our tree, and only 10% gained from the pierce, my math for the with pierce portion was slightly above what it should be. Specifically, the increased multiplier should be .2% lower.

Let total damage = T
Let base damage = B
Let sum of all additional damage = S
Let product of all more multipliers = P

The below ignores Pierce quality which in the scheme of things is negligible.

T = B * S * P

With Empower 3
TE3 = (B *1.25) * S * P

With Pierce level 20
TP = B * S * P * 1.3

TE3 >? TP

(B * 1.25) * S * P >? B * S * P * 1.3

1.25 >? 1.3

No.

So I still think Pierce is better than Empower 3 but not Empower 4. Let me know if you see mistakes in the above.

I don't see the 30% more damage from Pierce in gutsquasher's calulations - the more multiplier with Pierce will be 1.3 times as great as without Pierce which is better than 1.25% greater base damage provided by Empower 3. Basically it comes down to 1.3 > 1.25 as shown above.

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hankinsohl escribió:

Good point:

Total damage = Base damage * product of all more damage * sum of all additional damage

So I didn't factor in increased base damage * sum of all additional damage in this

Yeah, on the surface things like empower don't make too much can difference, but once you do all the dank maths, they end up giving 60% more dps when compared to other gems.

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gutsquasher escribió:

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hankinsohl escribió:

Good point:

Total damage = Base damage * product of all more damage * sum of all additional damage

So I didn't factor in increased base damage * sum of all additional damage in this

You caught me between edits in my response before I went back through and did the maths, LOL.

Unless I've overlooked something, Pierce basically gives 5% more damage than Empower 3 - check my edited response above for the math.

Edit: Also checked this with the CA DPS calculator tool - it also shows that Pierce is better than Empower 3.

I was going to go through and do the math on it but yeah basically Guts has it right.

In 2.1, when we were running an AoE gem and thus missing out on the 29% multiplicative damage of Rapid Decay, it actually was more beneficial to run RD instead of Empower 3.

But now that we get that extra multiplier, that plays a HUGE factor on the increased gem levels from Empower being slotted in, rather than Pierce.

That, and I tested it in-game in 2.2 by swapping the gems out to check the hard dps difference on the tooltip.

Pierce/Slower Proj beats out Empower 2, but not Empower 3, in a +3 bow.

Hence on the guide, I mention explicitly that if you have an effective Empower 4 (Empower 3 + 1 to all gems) or better, you should run that.

Thanks to guts for the math on the proof.


Remember, the foruma is basically Net Damage = (Base Damage * Increased) * Multiplicative, therefore the higher your base damage is, the more effective the other modifiers become.

Believe it or not, the extra 29% you get from Rapid Decay is what pushes Empower 3+ over the edge compared to any other gem option, due to the increase to CA's base damage as a result of the extra levels.


If it wasn't 2:11am, I'd log in and go about rechroming my bow to provide screenshots of the difference but the TL;DR here is Guts is right, Empower 3+ wins.


And you missed something then on Vmoddin's calculator, Hank. I just double checked it there as well. Empower 3 trumps out Pierce.


I posted screenshots of this waaaaaaaaaaay back sometime around 2.2.

Quick scan reveals one place where I discussed it. Pierce is a 4k damage loss compared to Empower 3.

From what I gather you don't really switch to Caustic until mid-late game and before that you are using other skills for leveling. I have only seen a couple skills mentioned to use. Is there a detailed leveling guide for these skills that include support skills to get w/it. I am pretty new and don't know all the gems so I simply would have to find the gem or have it offered to me in quest before I even knew it existed. So I'm pretty lost on what skills to take while leveling besides the 2 mentioned to use in the beginning. I will probably be going the Orb of Storms / Lightning Tendrils route as I will be playing solo and don't want to have to mule my starting gems. Any guidance is appreciated :)

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Serleth escribió:

I was going to go through and do the math on it but yeah basically Guts has it right.

In 2.1, when we were running an AoE gem and thus missing out on the 29% multiplicative damage of Rapid Decay, it actually was more beneficial to run RD instead of Empower 3.

But now that we get that extra multiplier, that plays a HUGE factor on the increased gem levels from Empower being slotted in, rather than Pierce.

That, and I tested it in-game in 2.2 by swapping the gems out to check the hard dps difference on the tooltip.

Pierce/Slower Proj beats out Empower 2, but not Empower 3, in a +3 bow.

Hence on the guide, I mention explicitly that if you have an effective Empower 4 (Empower 3 + 1 to all gems) or better, you should run that.

Thanks to guts for the math on the proof.


Remember, the foruma is basically Net Damage = (Base Damage * Increased) * Multiplicative, therefore the higher your base damage is, the more effective the other modifiers become.

Believe it or not, the extra 29% you get from Rapid Decay is what pushes Empower 3+ over the edge compared to any other gem option, due to the increase to CA's base damage as a result of the extra levels.


If it wasn't 2:11am, I'd log in and go about rechroming my bow to provide screenshots of the difference but the TL;DR here is Guts is right, Empower 3+ wins.


And you missed something then on Vmoddin's calculator, Hank. I just double checked it there as well. Empower 3 trumps out Pierce.


I posted screenshots of this waaaaaaaaaaay back sometime around 2.2.

Quick scan reveals one place where I discussed it. Pierce is a 4k damage loss compared to Empower 3.

Well, here's what I get from the damage calculator.
Pierce
Empower 3

I'm still seeing Empower 3 < Pierce.

You can also sub in Item Rarity for Slower Projectiles in the above; it doesn't make a difference to the outcome.

In the quick scan link I didn't quite follow your discussion about pierce chance - either way (with Empower 3 or with Pierce 20) we'll be at 100% pierce; I keep one 10% pierce node with the Pierce gem to achieve this.

Also in briefly looking at gutsquasher's calculations, I don't see where he accounts for Pierce's 30% more damage.

First, hi!

Second, http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Path_of_Exile_Wiki is your friend.

Which I mention because I'm going to be saying things like "use Controlled Destruction support gem" etc.

There really isn't much to the process, Kasey, insofar as what you've brought up regarding gems. All three spell options for levelling run pretty much identically, with some small differences.


Main Skills (Fire/Cold/Lightning): Firestorm / Frost Bolt / Lightning Tendrils

Secondary Skills (F/C/L): Flame Totem / Ice Nova (or Vortex, not to be confused with Blade Vortex) / Orb of Storms.

I'll run through Fire/Lightning first since they're the least complicated, and Frostbolt / Vortex aren't released yet until tomorrow.

So, for BOTH Firestorm and Lightning Tendrils you're initially looking to support them with flat added damage support gems, i.e. Added Lightning and Added Cold.

You can do the same for the secondary skills (Flame Totem and Orb of Storms) initially.

In BOTH scenarios, you will be looking to eventually change the support gems to Faster Casting and Controlled Destruction. For all four of the aforementioned skills. For Flame Totem, you may consider running Lesser Multiple Projectiles rather than Faster Casting, but I generally find I'm using the totem more for drawing enemy fire rather than dealing a significant portion of damage, so I'm personally fine leaving Faster Casting in there. The choice is yours.


For Frost Bolt + Ice Nova / Vortex combo, we know a bit less, but the principle is going to roughly be the same. The mechanics are different, however.

Flame Totem is generally for aggression control, like I mentioned, and Orb of Storms is mostly for amplifying the damage of your Lightning Tendrils while you're in the radius of the orb.


However, the way the Cold combination outlined above works is that you will first cast Frost Bolt, and then target the projectiles as they are travelling, then cast your choice of either Vortex or Ice Nova, which will result in a pretty neat combination effect.

Nobody really knows how good this is going to be yet, obviously, but as it turns out, we're basically looking at a similar concept:

Start out with Ice Nova and flat Added Cold / Lightning damage, eventually switching to Faster Casting and Controlled Destruction, and do the same for Frost Bolt.


IN ALL SCENARIOS, no matter what element you choose, here's the key bit:

You will want to craft yourself a +1 Fire/Cold/Lightning Gems Sceptre or Wand.

And this is another reason I linked the wiki because if you go to the wiki page on Vendor Recipes, it will tell you how to go about doing that.


Hope that helps!

Hank,

Net = (Base * Increased) * Multiplicative

Level 24 CA = 861.1 /s (Level 21 Base, +3 Bow)
Level 27 CA = 1198 /s (Level 21 Base, Empower 3 (effectively 4), +3 bow)

Damage Sources (Increased)

Chaos Damage: 20%
Projectile Damage: 210%
DoT: 69%
Misc: 100% (Carcass, Jewels, Golem, etc).
Drillneck: 90% (100% with Pierce Gem)
Gem Qualities: 30% (40% with Pierce Gem)

Pierce Gem Increased Modifiers: 539%
Empower Gem Increased Modifiers: 519%

Damage Sources (Multiplicative):

Concentrated Effect: 60%
Void Manipulation: 40%
Rapid Decay: 40%
Pierce: 30%
Frenzy Charges: 28%

Pierce Gem Multiplicative Modifiers: 198%
Empower Gem Multiplicative Modifiers: 168%

Pre-Debuff CA Damage (Pierce)
N = (B * I) * M
N = 861.1 * (1+ 539/100) * (1 + 198/100)
N = 861.1 * 6.39 * 2.98
N = 16,397.24 /s

Pre-Debuff CA Damage (Empower 3)
N = (B * I) * M
N = 1198 * (1 + 519/100) * (1 + 168/100)
N = 1198 * 6.19 * 2.68
N = 19,873.86 /s


For more direct proof, I just bought a 20/20 Pierce and used a spare +3 bow for the rechrome:

Pierce Tooltip


Empower 3 Tooltip


These are without Frenzy charges or any other modifications (namely, the Occultist recently cursed-kill).

Yes, these screens don't account for the Deadeye change, but the difference only gets more dramatic once you consider that the tooltip doesn't account for Concentrated Effect, either, nor the boosts from Vulnerability or Wither, the fact that Frenzy charges aren't in the mix (furthering the gap even more in all counts), and the difference in 2.3 pre-debuff would only be 10% increased on the tooltip shown for the Pierce gem.

I figured out (one of?) Vmoddin's problem(s) on the calculator btw, which is what's skewing your results (which I intuitively corrected for when doing my work on his calculator without even thinking about it, because I remembered having to do it before):

He doesn't put a cap on Pierce + Drillneck. If you push the Pierce chance up above 100, you will see the dps increase, which it shouldn't.

So when you "socket" the Pierce gem on his calculator, you're also increasing the Pierce chance. Hence, the misinformed result.