GGG COMPLETELY fucked up endgame in Abyss...

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DicemanX escribió:

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adghar escribió:

Grinding Gear Games makes Games about Grinding.

PoE should be about grinding for rewards, not grinding to access content.

Gating access to high level content behind RNG is the fundamental problem here.

What's wrong with access being the reward?

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adghar escribió:

Sorry if it seems like I'm spamming. Can't shake that urge to be repetitive this morning, for some reason.

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DicemanX escribió:

PoE should be about grinding for rewards, not grinding to access content.

Regardless of what we players feel,

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1823776

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Chris escribió:

Path of Exile is still designed and intended to be multiplayer with partying and trading.

emphasis mine.

You may need to give additional information beyond "should" to convince Path of Exile game designers otherwise.

EDIT: As an example of feedback that probably has more impact beyond "I don't like it, so it should change": I can't find it in this thread, so I must have read it elsewhere: People have mentioned that trading Maps is a painful experience because you have to whisper 20 people to get 1 Map. That offers a specific design point that GGG can address without you having to convince GGG to abandon a core design principle for emotional support - seems much more realistic in terms of actually getting GGG to change something, yes?

This rather amusing considering Chris' stance on improving trade with say an Auction House, which leads me to believe that Chris is not playing his own game and is just talking out of his derriere when it comes to arguments.

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Cogburn escribió:

What's wrong with access being the reward?

It's very frustrating for player, and shouldnt happen in ARPG.

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MortalKombat3 escribió:

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Cogburn escribió:

What's wrong with access being the reward?

It's very frustrating for player, and shouldnt happen in ARPG.

The mapping system is designed to be a currency sink.
Thats all it is supposed to do.
Draining currency out of the system, because every game like this needs an endgame currency sink in some way, shape or form.

In PoE its the mapping system and its getting the job done.
No reason to change anything from a devs perspective.

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Orbaal escribió:

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MortalKombat3 escribió:

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Cogburn escribió:

What's wrong with access being the reward?

It's very frustrating for player, and shouldnt happen in ARPG.

The mapping system is designed to be a currency sink.
Thats all it is supposed to do.
Draining currency out of the system, because every game like this needs an endgame currency sink in some way, shape or form.

In PoE its the mapping system and its getting the job done.
No reason to change anything from a devs perspective.

Well that is "fine and dandy", but there is something to be improved upon. A way to limit the RNG requirement to progress.

Make everything A LOT MORE EXPENSIVE, but also make it CERTAIN that you will progress even when you're hitting a "bad streak of RNG".

Most players should be bothered that BOSSES, which should be perceived as the TOUGH enemies from a map have no rules regarding their dropped loot, EXCEPT further RNG chance based on the END GAME ones.

And people ask themselves why should they bother with those enemies, as they are "pushovers" regarding rewards, and post the blanket HP buff, they got at least worthy of players noticing them concerning the danger they pose.

So why should bosses not reward players with a certain outcome, like never dropping a map below the current tier, and keep the chance instead for a +1 or +2 tiers (while also keeping map drop chance as it currently is)???

The mapping system can drain just as now the currency out of the game, but wouldn't it be better to actually make players use the said currency "moar" instead of just hoarding it as a "trade token"?

Right now, due to all the RNG layers upon RNG layers, some do prefer a "set" outcome, but when the best way to find a worthwhile item upgrade END GAME is to BUY one if possible (except SSF of course), or at most try your chances with RNG gambling aka "crafting", it leaves a lot to be desired regarding itemisation in an ARPG, although YOU SPEND CURRENCY on rolling said content...

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Orbaal escribió:

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MortalKombat3 escribió:

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Cogburn escribió:

What's wrong with access being the reward?

It's very frustrating for player, and shouldnt happen in ARPG.

The mapping system is designed to be a currency sink.
Thats all it is supposed to do.

Could you elaborated a little bit?
How changing money can become a currency sink?

Crafting - yes
Harbinger's Orb - yes
Trading - ?

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Apachy escribió:

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Orbaal escribió:

The mapping system is designed to be a currency sink.
Thats all it is supposed to do.

Could you elaborated a little bit?
How changing money can become a currency sink?

Crafting - yes
Harbinger's Orb - yes
Trading - ?

He's referring to how you run maps, as you are better served by those chiseled, and then post that, you either Trans + Aug + Alt + Regal or simply Alch + Chaos for reaching rare status on them, and even Vaaling them if needed - each investment will have a form of return averaged around a more than 1 pool - in the case of maps, you benefit by increasing the EXP gain via more monsters, the number of dropped loot by monster number also and the difficulty of the map regarding your currently played build as each build will have good and bad points...

Of course that even "trading" is a currency sink, as that "changing money" method encourages players to adapt to the request/offer on the market - so those traders will be more inclined to use Vaal orbs on sold maps for example, as only a small number of maps drop corrupted from the start, and also they could trade for orbs the "unlucky" outcomes regarding their mapping endeavour...

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sofocle10000 escribió:

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Apachy escribió:

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Orbaal escribió:

The mapping system is designed to be a currency sink.
Thats all it is supposed to do.

Could you elaborated a little bit?
How changing money can become a currency sink?

Crafting - yes
Harbinger's Orb - yes
Trading - ?

He's referring to how you run maps, as you are better served by those chiseled, and then post that, you either Trans + Aug + Alt + Regal or simply Alch + Chaos for reaching rare status on them, and even Vaaling them if needed - each investment will have a form of return averaged around a more than 1 pool - in the case of maps, you benefit by increasing the EXP gain via more monsters, the number of dropped loot by monster number also and the difficulty of the map regarding your currently played build as each build will have good and bad points...

Exactly.
Plus Zana mods and Sextants and all that stuff.

You should expect a minimum investment of 10c per red tier map. Thats not even including the map itself, just crafting the map.
You wont get any sort of guarantee to get you investment back, which is why its a currency sink.
However you might get good items or maps as reward, which could be sold to fund the next maps.
In case you got no items/maps, you just paid for XP and nothing else.

Its not that different from gambling in a casino.
Its purely based on RNG and the only way to overcome or mitigate RNG, is by doing the same thing over and over again.
If you had an infinite amount of money, you could force any casino on planet earth into bankruptcy.
Its the same with mapping. Run an insane amount of maps and you will break even - at some point you´ll even make money.
If you are playing casually and just run a few maps every now and then, you´ll never be able to sustain red tier maps.

Thats a design decision. You are free to dislike it ofc, but you shouldnt expect major changes here.
The mapping system works exactly the way it is supposed to work.

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adghar escribió:

Sorry if it seems like I'm spamming. Can't shake that urge to be repetitive this morning, for some reason.

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DicemanX escribió:

PoE should be about grinding for rewards, not grinding to access content.

Regardless of what we players feel,

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1823776

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Chris escribió:

Path of Exile is still designed and intended to be multiplayer with partying and trading.

emphasis mine.

The quote doesn't challenge what I said. The game centers largely on trading already because the rewards are pretty pathetic and crafting really good gear requires a ton of luck, and the chances of getting something you really need are very slim. Most players understand that the way of acquiring the best gear is through farming currency and trading for gear.

Just because GGG wants the game to center around player interaction and trade doesn't necessitate that the content itself be gated by RNG and thus force players to trade to gain access.

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You may need to give additional information beyond "should" to convince Path of Exile game designers otherwise.

Do you seriously require justification why game content should be accessible and not gated behind RNG?? Endgame content should be readily accessible but require skill and effort. For instance, access to Shaper's realm is only granted if you can defeat 4 challenging guardians, but at least it is guaranteed if you have the skills to beat the guardians - that is good design. The same cannot be said for getting those guardian maps themselves, or getting uber atziri fragments for instance.

If the concern is that guaranteed access will devalue the rewards, then there are simple solutions to that - you could reduce the chances of good rewards for instance to be in-line with the current rates of acquisition or just make sure that the fights offer a significant challenge. Even if the power creep allows many builds to destroy boses in seconds currently, GGG could introduce certain mechanics that would be tied up with rewards themselves (the Vault treasure pile rewards and the Lich rewards might not be implemented very well but at least they are a step in the right direction).

I cant talk about the rest but if tier 15-16 maps were easily accessible and guaranteed I'd get super bored and quit way earlier. Because honestly whats the point of trying to force 8 mod maps if you can go with an alch and sustain your tier 15s the way Harbinger worked? There is nothing to play for.